Grace

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
Paul wrote:Isn't it your experience aswell that once saved, born again of the Spirit, the Lord worked those desires in your heart that before weren't there?
Certainly. Have been called legalistic for them, too. :roll:

I don't think you're really encapsulating any of my main concerns with the OP (see my first reply). Which is good.
That said, I'll try to not make semantic mole hills into mountains with this thread
Glad that you're posting... hope to continue to see you around more on here!
Yep I have been called the same, people are often offended by those that radically follow Christ and exhort others to do the same, I guess it's easy to pass it off as "legalism". Thanks for your welcome and I hope to stay around.
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

So I was watching a series on british youth that went down to America to visit the Amish just now, called "Living with the Amish".

In this particular episode the lovely song was playing in the background as the show was transitioning towards a Biblestudy with the teenagers.

"His love is a boundless love and it reaches down and touches me.."

Then the Amish man narrates "You may have noticed, that we quite like the Bible, it's teachings keep us on Gods path. Sharing in those teachings, is a privilege that we seldom offer to an outsider."

Well it made me wonder, what about Matthew 28 inside that Bible you like so much?! Doesn't it say that we should be "sharing in those teachings" with the world?! Well ofcourse the show is a way of doing so, but sharing Gods boundless love in Christ shouldn't be a "privilege seldom offered to an outsider" right?

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
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cmbl
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Re: Grace

Post by cmbl »

One of the important differences between Old Order groups (like the Amish) and Conservative Anabaptist groups is a difference in attitudes toward evangelism.
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Josh
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Re: Grace

Post by Josh »

I'm currently in a far away country where Christianity doesn't have much positive impact and non-resistant kingdom Christianity is virtually unknown. Yet even out here, the Amish are known and admired. Someone I barely know, from another country and culture, said "You know, I really admire them and how they live. They have something we don't. Sometimes I think I'd be better off living like they do. They really live what they believe in."

I don't think I'd ever hear that person say that about evangelical Christians, and I doubt that person has the foggiest idea who conservative Mennonites are, despite all our evangelistic efforts.
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Ernie
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Re: Grace

Post by Ernie »

i believe that salvation (past, present, and future) is a free gift, that there are conditions necessary for receiving this free gift, and that these conditions in no way enable us to earn this gift.
If I ask my daughter to clear the dirty dishes from the table, then sit on the sofa and hold out her hands to receive a gift from me, she is not earning the gift, she is simply complying with the conditions necessary for receiving it.
I was a mess spiritually until I understood this.

The reason most Old Orders, and many conservative Anabaptists don't share their faith verbally is because they are scared of what people might think of them. Its the same reason why many Protestants and Catholics don't share their faith verbally. I think that most people who do not have this fear, share their faith verbally because they've been trained to do so or feel obligated to do so. For some the gain is something akin to an adrenalin rush or a satisfied feeling one gets after making a good sales pitch.
Then there are the few like the apostles who are naturally afraid, but humbly pray to God for boldness. I think it is these folks that receive grace from God to share their faith verbally.
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Martin
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Re: Grace

Post by Martin »

Ernie wrote:The reason most Old Orders, and many conservative Anabaptists don't share their faith verbally is because they are scared of what people might think of them. Its the same reason why many Protestants and Catholics don't share their faith verbally. I think that most people who do not have this fear, share their faith verbally because they've been trained to do so or feel obligated to do so. For some the gain is something akin to an adrenalin rush or a satisfied feeling one gets after making a good sales pitch.
Then there are the few like the apostles who are naturally afraid, but humbly pray to God for boldness. I think it is these folks that receive grace from God to share their faith verbally.
Are the Old Orders scared to share their faith because of what people might think of them or is it because we believe in being the quiet of the land? It does definitely take grace to know what to say to people. Some are sincere and others not so.
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Wade
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Re: Grace

Post by Wade »

I believe a main key to grace always has to do with being humble because without being humble we can't have grace.
So if we balance that with evangelism I think we see something closer to what Ernie said.
Do we want to work on peoples consciences or the Spirit to work?
Obviously we can't do nothing and we should have a love for the saving of the lost as Christ came and did.
Where is that balanced with being humble?
I would think the body has some that are more fit for evangelizing than others but that may not mean they have more grace but rather play a different role in the body.
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Ernie
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Re: Grace

Post by Ernie »

Martin wrote:Are the Old Orders scared to share their faith because of what people might think of them or is it because we believe in being the quiet of the land? It does definitely take grace to know what to say to people. Some are sincere and others not so.
It is probably as you say for most Old Orders. For conservative Anabaptists who are encouraged to share their faith, it is often the fear of man or a feeling of inadequacy.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Ernie wrote:i believe that salvation (past, present, and future) is a free gift, that there are conditions necessary for receiving this free gift, and that these conditions in no way enable us to earn this gift.
If I ask my daughter to clear the dirty dishes from the table, then sit on the sofa and hold out her hands to receive a gift from me, she is not earning the gift, she is simply complying with the conditions necessary for receiving it.
I was a mess spiritually until I understood this.

The reason most Old Orders, and many conservative Anabaptists don't share their faith verbally is because they are scared of what people might think of them. Its the same reason why many Protestants and Catholics don't share their faith verbally. I think that most people who do not have this fear, share their faith verbally because they've been trained to do so or feel obligated to do so. For some the gain is something akin to an adrenalin rush or a satisfied feeling one gets after making a good sales pitch.
Then there are the few like the apostles who are naturally afraid, but humbly pray to God for boldness. I think it is these folks that receive grace from God to share their faith verbally.
Well if there are conditions necessary to receive a gift, you can ask yourself how free the gift really is? If you say, "sure I will give you this completely freely, after you have done this and this and that" then however you phrase it, bottomline is, it's a conditional gift. But the gift of eternal life is truly a free and undeserved gift by the sacrifice that God gave on our behalf in Jesus Christ. Which in turn gives God all the glory, and should work humility in us. A little piece from a sermon of Samuel Rutherford I have been translating, which I think truly exalts Gods grace in suffering for us and also invites us to freely come to Him Who has paid the price for our salvation:

“Our Lord says, let them be as ill as devils to Me, I will be as good as God to them. Then it reproves those who seek a reason why Christ died for them. O, say they, I am a hard-hearted body, so rebellious that Christ would never die for me! Well, then, do ye think that Christ died for hire? Would you make Christ a Popish God, who only died for sinners that could repay Him? Christ, ere He came out of heaven, knew the worst of it, and said, Let My friends slay Me, I will die in love for them. Look, then, sour, unthankful world, what a hold Christ took of your souls, and held them fast, and would not let them go. So it is a shame to us not to clasp to Him. This mercy of the Mediator has shamed us all out at the door; we are ashamed for ever more, if we do not take Christ who would so fain take us. Come to yourselves then, and fight no longer against Him. Say, Woe's me, that my Lord kissed me, but I abused Him!”

And by the way, one of the reasons I think the Apostles were so bold in their preaching is that they were very aware of the grace of their Lord Jesus Christ. Having fallen away when Christ was arrested, they were graciously restored. And they wanted to be faithful to their Lords calling of preaching the Gospel, no matter what the cost was, because of the understanding that through their preaching His Spirit and grace would save lost souls both from Jew and Gentile because that is what Jesus Christ came to give His life for.

If it were a conditional salvation, it would seem an impossible job because you'd only look at the world and think.. man these people are not qualified by a long shot and they hate us anyway.. how is this ever going to work? Let's just be loving and hope they ask us what we believe..

But if - like the Apostle Paul - you realise where you came from, how undeserved this gift is that you have received, how great the love and grace of God infact is and how free the Gospel of Jesus Christ for sinners actually is. If you abandon all thoughts of earning, qualifying or keeping salvation and look through the eyes of Gods grace in Jesus Christ, to save us, keep us and glorify us (Romans 8) then you'd realise that none of us are qualified for salvation and that this is exactly why God sent His Son to die for us! Christ died for us while we were yet sinners, He came to save the unqualified. And if you truly love the Lord and love people, and consider what He has suffered to save us from hell and bring us to heaven, and if you likewise care for the eternal destination of others, ofcourse no price would be high enough to pay to share His Gospel right? I think that is part of what inspired the Apostles to do what they did.
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Ernie
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Re: Grace

Post by Ernie »

Paul wrote:Well if there are conditions necessary to receive a gift, you can ask yourself how free the gift really is?
Not at all. Asking someone to hold out their hands to receive a gift has nothing to do with earning the gift. Cleaning the table is part of our daughter's normal duties. Birthday gifts are something we give to our daughters because we love them. Not because they do chores for us.
Now if you said, "I will give you a gift if you do extra work for me or give me some money," than it would no longer be a completely free gift.
Paul wrote: If you say, "sure I will give you this completely freely, after you have done this and this and that" then however you phrase it, bottomline is, it's a conditional gift.
Yes. I do believe the gift is conditional. Conditional but not earned.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
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