Grace

[lesterb]

I would like to suggest that Scripturally there are two (types?) of grace, saving grace, which is the free unmerited grace God provides for our salvation, and enabling grace, which, in the power of the Holy Spirit, enables us to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. Often there is focus on either one to the exclusion of the other, but I believe that for the Christian the two are inseparable.

This would be my position. This passage illustrates that. Verses 8, 9 illustrate the first kind of grace and verse 10 the second kind. We need grace for salvation and we need grace to live in obedience.
[bible]ephesians 2,8-10[/bible]

[cmbl]

I generally agree with what Josh and KingdomBuilder have said.
I would like to respond to a couple points in the post, and pick apart what I think are underlying suppositions:

It seems to me although many might say that we cannot do good deeds to be born again, we must do enough good works to remain born again and therefore they view 'staying saved' more as some unspecified level of obedience we must pursue in 'fear and trembling'

So underlying this, I think, is the question of "how much do I have to do to be saved?" It's a question that Protestantism *loves* to ask, because it leads to the Protestant answer...."Nothing!"

But is it a right question to be asking?

The gospel according to Matthew and the first epistle of John continue to amaze me. This question of "how much" is just not in view there. In Matthew, there are two kinds of people - the sheep and the goats. In 1 John, there are two kinds of people - those who do his commandments and those who don't. It just doesn't seem to me like either of the writers leave room to ask "well how much do I have to do to be a sheep?" They do, however, explicitly say that you have to do things.

Maybe a better question is, "What is the will of the Father and how can I do it?"

the miraculous conversion experiences that came with the message of grace (unmerited favor)

Who decided that "grace == unmerited favor"?

[silentreader]

I would like to suggest that Scripturally there are two (types?) of grace, saving grace, which is the free unmerited grace God provides for our salvation, and enabling grace, which, in the power of the Holy Spirit, enables us to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. Often there is focus on either one to the exclusion of the other, but I believe that for the Christian the two are inseparable.

Well there's two types of grace I think Scripturally, general grace given to every human being - the fact that we are clothed, get food, watch a sunrise etc. is Gods general grace - and then Gods saving grace for those that believe in Jesus Christ. And that saving grace starts with justification and includes sanctification I believe.

I don't think there's a solid connection between lack of an evangelical view of grace and evangelism.

Nobody links salvation to grace more than Reformed people, but just like we Anabaptists, they often bemoan their lack of evangelism (using the term the "frozen chosen").

I think it is not just a reformed view, but it is what Paul taught in many of his epistles. Without Christ we can do nothing, and yet we are called to follow Him and take up our cross. But is there any Evangelism done now among the Anabaptists? Be back later.. God bless!

I would consider what you call 'general grace' to be a third form of grace.

[Paul]

Hmm... Seems as if this person would be more comfortable in a Baptist church?
Eternal security and a flare of worklessness seem to cornerstones of this post. The idea that God's grace is equivalent with salvation, and that nothing we can do (literally.. nothing) can change that, leads to a lot of issues. God's grace is a gift, and he loves all of his creation, but he is still a righteous judge- the fact that he loves us is not what gets us to heaven. Free will has to step in some where.
The citation of the evangelical mission also makes me think this person would be more satisfied in a Protestant church. Winning over souls and then having little to do with them, or not encouraging a holy lifestyle, works out for very few of these "converts".
Also, the part about the degree to which our lives are impacted by the Spirit depending upon the intellectual acknowledgement of it all seems very flawed. To me, that is almost indistinguishable from "Name it and Claim it" Christianity.

Well I do not think that a "flare of worklessness" is what the person was describing or advocating at all, but rather a diagnosis of the Anabaptist life of faith from the point of living by grace through faith in Christ and actively reaching out to the world with the Gospel.

And I think his concern towards a legalistic system that is mostly concerned about "staying saved", keeping the community together, and abiding by a list of rules, is a valid one. It can look righteous on the outside, but if there isn't true grace on the inside, and if it isn't a salting salt or a city on a hill, or a light for the room, what use is it for our Lord to expand His Kingdom?

We should ofcourse not try to "win" souls merely by the raising of hands, as if that is all there is to it. We should always be looking for genuine conversion and true repentance from sin ofcourse. But we need to realise that, if we are born again and have received the Holy Spirit, then we are heirs with Jesus Christ by Gods amazing grace. We cannot lose that grace as much as we didn't earn it, the Bible clearly teaches that, besides the verses below, read Romans 8 or John 10 for example if you are not convinced.

Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

And if you realise what it cost the Eternal God to save us, that Holy and Perfect Christ gave Himself completely for us, that He suffered ridicule and humiliation to bring us into His Kingdom. Then how come we are so slow to obey this Eternal Kings command to go out into the world to preach His Gospel? If we would have such an amazing King that gave everything He owned to save us, rebellious citizens, out of pure love and grace. A King that forgave the debt we owed Him, and could never repay. Then how can we become so forgetful to forget this Kings greatest commandment, look to ourselves again and think we have to work out our own salvation? To forget the Kings plain command to share the news of His love and grace with others, and instead stay at home to try to serve Him by excercising our own moral virtues and work harder than anyone to keep our own garden in tiptop shape - albeit under the cloak of serving after the Kings command and seperating from the unclean. But we were called to do these things, and not leave the others undone.

It might look very virtuous on the outside, but that is not what the King, Who gave His all to rescue you, gave Himself for! He did not give Himself so we could finish the job in our own strength, He gave a full and complete sacrifice to which we need to add nothing of our own, and in which He offers salvation to the world. And yes when Christ lives in us, that salvation always will bear holy fruit accordingly, but the fruit is no requirement for salvation, it is a product of salvation.
The King we serve has His joy in our salvation - that is why He paid the price for it - and in that of many more people in all tongues, nations, tribes etc. And as He has joy in our salvation and will so for eternity, and reckoning the price He paid for it, shouldn't we serve Him by calling more to serve Him and thus increasing His joy and glory of granting mercy and grace to the souls of men and women? Nobody will get to know the King we serve by grace through faith simply by observing the good looking garden we tend every day, or by the beautiful quilt we give to charity, those things are good - don't get me wrong - but they should not be our primary focus. They should simply add credibility to our testimony that we serve a Living King, and by grace have received a new heart with new desires and actions, that we are in the world but not of the world - not just because we dress differently, or live seperately and physically per sé - but because our hearts are transformed by the King we serve. Then we give honour to the King, instead of boasting about our own virtues and righteousness, He gets the glory and the increase for His grace and Righteousness He clothes us with.

Why am I so passionate about this? Well I saw a documentary a while ago, you might know it, The Amish: A secret life. In the documentary an Amish family opened up their home for a documentary by the BBC on their life and faith. The most beautiful thing about it was their reason for cooperating in the documentary was to share the Gospel with the world. The Amish man - David I think - literally said that his motivation to partake in the documentary was because the Lord said "go ye into the world, to the uttermost parts, teaching and preaching in My Name". He also said "Many people think an amish lifestyle will make them happy, some people think a big house will make you happy, but my message is - those things are good - but if that's what your happiness is based upon it's not gonna last - if you receive Jesus Christ, that will be your true happiness." Well I have to say this family was very godly and sincere in their love for the Lord and their desire to share it with the world. And millions have watched the documentary, and I pray the Lord used it to touch hearts. But my point is that in the documentary they were in fear of being shunned by their church for what they were participating in, but they considered the Gospel of Jesus Christ more important. Sadly it turned out later that they were indeed shunned for partaking in the documentary. But I think the sacrifice they made was extremely worthwile, a prime example of serving Jesus Christ more than man. And it seems that - at least in the Amish community, (and in many other communities aswell, anabaptist and other)- rules and regulations can prevent us from obeying the primary call that our Almighty King gave us, to share Him with the world:

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

If I am completely wrong here, and the Anabaptist community is actually thriving with Evangelistic zeal, and converts are thronging your congregations, then I apologise and I take back my unwisely spoken words. But if that is not the case, then what about the commandment in Matthew 28? Less important than Matthew 5-7? I don't think so. God bless you all.

[KingdomBuilder]

Paul, I appreciate your response.
How do you view Philippians 2:12-

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Some more questions:
Do you think grace is synonymous with salvation?
What do you think we must do once saved?

[Paul]

Paul, I appreciate your response.
How do you view Philippians 2:12-

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Some more questions:
Do you think grace is synonymous with salvation?
What do you think we must do once saved?

I think that Paul was exhorting the believers in Philippi to take heed to their salvation, to not get into a lax spiritual state but to serve the Lord with an earnest zeal. As we can see in Revelation, the Church can fall into bad spiritual conditions, and so can individuals that have received grace upto a certain point, by allowing sin in their lives and especially by losing their focus on the Lord and not abiding in Him. But I believe the Lord will draw them back, as He drew Peter back after his fall. And I don't think Paul is attributing salvation to our own works here, not in an absolute sense, as if that were the sole foundation, that would be completely contradicting himself and the rest of Gods Word.

Yes I think grace is synonymous with salvation in the sense that salvation is purely given and received by grace and none of works, as Paul says in Ephesians.

What we must do once saved? Serve our Lord, take up our cross and follow Him to live a new life after His will through His Holy Spirit and according to His Word. Also to freely share His grace and love with others which we have freely received. But doing so in prayer and with our eyes fixed on Him to provide us with strength, love and humility that depends on Him for all these things. Oh yes, and get baptised ofcourse - but that is part of obedience to the Lord.

Isn't it your experience aswell that once saved, born again of the Spirit, the Lord worked those desires in your heart that before weren't there?

[KingdomBuilder]

Isn't it your experience aswell that once saved, born again of the Spirit, the Lord worked those desires in your heart that before weren't there?

Certainly. Have been called legalistic for them, too.

I don't think you're really encapsulating any of my main concerns with the OP (see my first reply). Which is good.
That said, I'll try to not make semantic mole hills into mountains with this thread
Glad that you're posting... hope to continue to see you around more on here!

[silentreader]

Paul, I appreciate your response.
How do you view Philippians 2:12-

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Some more questions:
Do you think grace is synonymous with salvation?
What do you think we must do once saved?

I think that Paul was exhorting the believers in Philippi to take heed to their salvation, to not get into a lax spiritual state but to serve the Lord with an earnest zeal. As we can see in Revelation, the Church can fall into bad spiritual conditions, and so can individuals that have received grace upto a certain point, by allowing sin in their lives and especially by losing their focus on the Lord and not abiding in Him. But I believe the Lord will draw them back, as He drew Peter back after his fall. And I don't think Paul is attributing salvation to our own works here, not in an absolute sense, as if that were the sole foundation, that would be completely contradicting himself and the rest of Gods Word.

Yes I think grace is synonymous with salvation in the sense that salvation is purely given and received by grace and none of works, as Paul says in Ephesians.

What we must do once saved? Serve our Lord, take up our cross and follow Him to live a new life after His will through His Holy Spirit and according to His Word. Also to freely share His grace and love with others which we have freely received. But doing so in prayer and with our eyes fixed on Him to provide us with strength, love and humility that depends on Him for all these things. Oh yes, and get baptised ofcourse - but that is part of obedience to the Lord.

Isn't it your experience aswell that once saved, born again of the Spirit, the Lord worked those desires in your heart that before weren't there?

I think he was saying, in effect, work out the salvation (which is already yours) in fear and trembling. The following verses, 13+, must be included for context.

[Neto]

I suspect that this post was written by Sudsy. He consistently voiced a strong concern for reaching out to the lost, questioned eternal punishment, and was also in an MB congregation for a period of years. I think that if you could read a wide range of his comments as he posted on MennoDiscuss, some of the objections to the quotation here might be answered. (As far as his background goes, he was in a Pentecostal congregation before being involved in the MB congregation, and his father had had a total change of direction spiritually, and had become a bold witness to the truth of the Gospel, often preaching on street corners.)

I have not been able to read all of the responses here carefully (just a quick read-through at this point), but I do think that we too easily fall in the the trap of thinking that "We are saved by the grace of God through faith, but we stay saved through good works." I've started turning the phrase "grace of God" around, and make it "God's grace", because 'Grace' has become personified to the point that people forget whose grace it is. The emphasis should be on the fact that it comes from God. No other grace has any meaning. Like the hymn, Amazing Grace: "Through many dangers, trials, and snares I have already come. Twas Grace that brought me safe thus far, and Grace will lead me home." I like the song, but when I sing it by myself, I change the above lines as follows: "Through many dangers, trials, and snares I have already come. Twas Christ who brought me safe thus far, and Christ will lead me home."

[KingdomBuilder]

Like the hymn, Amazing Grace: "Through many dangers, trials, and snares I have already come. Twas Grace that brought me safe thus far, and Grace will lead me home." I like the song, but when I sing it by myself, I change the above lines as follows: "Through many dangers, trials, and snares I have already come. Twas Christ who brought me safe thus far, and Christ will lead me home."

Interesting.. I too am a hymn changer