Grace

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Re: Grace

Post by RZehr »

Ernie wrote:
Martin wrote:Are the Old Orders scared to share their faith because of what people might think of them or is it because we believe in being the quiet of the land? It does definitely take grace to know what to say to people. Some are sincere and others not so.
It is probably as you say for most Old Orders. For conservative Anabaptists who are encouraged to share their faith, it is often the fear of man or a feeling of inadequacy.
I agree.
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Wade wrote:I believe a main key to grace always has to do with being humble because without being humble we can't have grace.
So if we balance that with evangelism I think we see something closer to what Ernie said.
Do we want to work on peoples consciences or the Spirit to work?
Obviously we can't do nothing and we should have a love for the saving of the lost as Christ came and did.
Where is that balanced with being humble?
I would think the body has some that are more fit for evangelizing than others but that may not mean they have more grace but rather play a different role in the body.
Well I like to turn that around and say that without grace being grace, an undeserved gift, we cannot be humble. What humbles us should be the realisation that we did not deserve this gift or comply to any conditions in order to receive it. If we did meet conditions in order to receive it, that would actually give us something to boast about - we met the conditions for salvation, unlike all those worldly people - which is contrary to what Ephesians 2 teaches.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This teaches that because we are saved, created in Christ Jesus, we can do good works which God before ordained us to walk in. So while we were yet unable to do any good or meet any conditions, God had ordained this for us. The same as, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Edit: That being said I wholeheartedly agree that it is by Gods work through His Spirit alone that people are saved, but He does use the foolishness of preaching to accomplish that work. And not everyone in the Body of Christ might be called for the specific task of a public Evangelist but everyone can do their little bit of sharing their faith with others and should have a heart to reach the lost right? It should be a community effort though, some to pray, some to assist, and some to actually Evangelise. I think that is how it was done in the old days by the Moravian Brethren for instance, very powerful times.
Ernie wrote: Not at all. Asking someone to hold out their hands to receive a gift has nothing to do with earning the gift. Cleaning the table is part of our daughter's normal duties. Birthday gifts are something we give to our daughters because we love them. Not because they do chores for us.
Now if you said, "I will give you a gift if you do extra work for me or give me some money," than it would no longer be a completely free gift.
Yes. I do believe the gift is conditional. Conditional but not earned.
Well brother if you look at how the Apostle Paul speaks of salvation in Ephesians 1, there is not a word about meeting any conditions for it except trusting in Christ. Rather what he is doing is fully emphasizing Gods Sovereign love and grace in the giving of it.

Ephesians 1:4-14 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
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Ernie
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Re: Grace

Post by Ernie »

Paul wrote:Well brother if you look at how the Apostle Paul speaks of salvation in Ephesians 1, there is not a word about meeting any conditions for it except trusting in Christ. Rather what he is doing is fully emphasizing Gods Sovereign love and grace in the giving of it.
This assumes that Ephesians 1 says everything that God wants to say about salvation - an assumption I don't hold to. There are lots more passages in the New Testament. Jesus definitely talks about conditions.

It really comes down to how a person reads the Bible.

Westerners like to distill things down to the bare bones - narrow things down - to the least common denominator.

When the Bible was written, truth was not systematized. In general the goal from Bible study and from reading was to accumulate as much wisdom and knowledge and information (including mystery) about a topic as possible with the goal of broadening one's understanding so one could better understand, worship, and follow God. It seems they wanted expanded definitions.
Finding the precise definition of a Greek word, and giving spiritual terms a precise definition did not seem to be a major goal of early Christians.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Wade
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Re: Grace

Post by Wade »

Paul wrote:
Wade wrote:I believe a main key to grace always has to do with being humble because without being humble we can't have grace.
So if we balance that with evangelism I think we see something closer to what Ernie said.
Do we want to work on peoples consciences or the Spirit to work?
Obviously we can't do nothing and we should have a love for the saving of the lost as Christ came and did.
Where is that balanced with being humble?
I would think the body has some that are more fit for evangelizing than others but that may not mean they have more grace but rather play a different role in the body.
Well I like to turn that around and say that without grace being grace, an undeserved gift, we cannot be humble. What humbles us should be the realisation that we did not deserve this gift or comply to any conditions in order to receive it. If we did meet conditions in order to receive it, that would actually give us something to boast about - we met the conditions for salvation, unlike all those worldly people - which is contrary to what Ephesians 2 teaches.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This teaches that because we are saved, created in Christ Jesus, we can do good works which God before ordained us to walk in. So while we were yet unable to do any good or meet any conditions, God had ordained this for us. The same as, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Edit: That being said I wholeheartedly agree that it is by Gods work through His Spirit alone that people are saved, but He does use the foolishness of preaching to accomplish that work. And not everyone in the Body of Christ might be called for the specific task of a public Evangelist but everyone can do their little bit of sharing their faith with others and should have a heart to reach the lost right? It should be a community effort though, some to pray, some to assist, and some to actually Evangelise. I think that is how it was done in the old days by the Moravian Brethren for instance, very powerful times.
Ernie wrote: Not at all. Asking someone to hold out their hands to receive a gift has nothing to do with earning the gift. Cleaning the table is part of our daughter's normal duties. Birthday gifts are something we give to our daughters because we love them. Not because they do chores for us.
Now if you said, "I will give you a gift if you do extra work for me or give me some money," than it would no longer be a completely free gift.
Yes. I do believe the gift is conditional. Conditional but not earned.
Well brother if you look at how the Apostle Paul speaks of salvation in Ephesians 1, there is not a word about meeting any conditions for it except trusting in Christ. Rather what he is doing is fully emphasizing Gods Sovereign love and grace in the giving of it.

Ephesians 1:4-14 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
I appreciate your zeal however this is a simple breakdown of what your strong emphasis does for me on grace being completely unconditional:
If it is completely unconditional then I can't understand where our choice to follow Christ enters the picture.
If we are to follow without choice or free will then one could start claiming once saved always saved because neither do we have the choice of not following Him.
If we don't have free will or choice then we are all just predestined to a certain fate and there would be absolutely no real point in evangelizing... Which I thought you were trying to encourage...
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Ernie wrote: This assumes that Ephesians 1 says everything that God wants to say about salvation - an assumption I don't hold to. There are lots more passages in the New Testament. Jesus definitely talks about conditions.

It really comes down to how a person reads the Bible.

Westerners like to distill things down to the bare bones - narrow things down - to the least common denominator.

When the Bible was written, truth was not systematized. In general the goal from Bible study and from reading was to accumulate as much wisdom and knowledge and information (including mystery) about a topic as possible with the goal of broadening one's understanding so one could better understand, worship, and follow God. It seems they wanted expanded definitions.
Finding the precise definition of a Greek word, and giving spiritual terms a precise definition did not seem to be a major goal of early Christians.
Well no I don't say that Ephesians 1 says everything there is to say about salvation in the Bible, I simply said that if you look at how Paul describes salvation in Ephesians 1, there are no conditions mentioned. And it's simply a fact you can't deny. In Ephesians 2 he says the same again, Eph. 2:8-10 & in Galatians 3:11 "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." And Paul took that quote from Habakkuk 2:4 "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Also a few verses previous Paul said: Gal.3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." which refers all the way back to Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." So the Bible isn't a pick and choosing of verses for me, it is one consistent whole, and it consistently speaks of faith being accounted to us as righteousness. Both in the Old and New Testament the condition for salvation, and being clothed with Gods Righteousness, is faith - in the Old it was faith in God as revealed upto that time, in the New it is faith in Jesus Christ who is God manifest in the flesh. And in both Old and New that faith brought forth holy fruit, in obedience to God.

Now you can reject that, and say I am just picking and choosing verses and I shouldn't be "systemizing truth" but don't forget that the truth you hold on to - namely that there are conditions to salvation - is also a truth you assume from your own logic that expecting your daughter to do her chores is more or less equal to man's capability to do his duties towards God and so it merits salvation or meets the conditions attached to it. Which is a very human view of looking at things, if you work hard, do your duties, you get what's due.

My point is you have your own system of logic aswell, which you use to interpret the Bible, and which brings you to a different conclusion.

Now I try to discern my logic from the Bible and there is nothing wrong with setting forth doctrine, as Paul does aswell, he picks verses out of the OT to prove his point to the Galatians. So you blame Paul for "systemizing" his theology? Ofcourse not, it is only the logical thing to do. Now we can look at Gods Word and through the Holy Spirit discern His dealings with man and get to know Him more, and we always need to test our own logic against the Word of God right? And the Word is One as God is One, so we need to understand it as a whole.

And I think one of the ways where you go wrong in your thinking about salvation and conditions, is in assuming our capacity to meet those conditions. Your daughter might be able to do the dishes, she has got hands and a sound mind, she's got the ability to fulfill her duty towards you as her father. But we as fallen creatures have lost that ability to fulfill our duty towards God in paradise, God still demands the duty from us, as a creditor can still demand payment even though the debtor is unable to pay. But we have lost the ability in ourselves to pay God anything, we have no hands or sound mind to wash those dishes and perform the duty to our Father in heaven. So that is no basis for our reward, for our entry into heaven, we can try to wash as many dishes as we can in our own strength, but they will remain filthy because our hearts are not right with God and our duty is not as pleases God. Only Jesus Christ could Perfectly fulfill that duty towards His Father, and because of that, on the basis of His washing our dirty dishes, we can freely come to our Father empty handed to receive the reward that Jesus Christ earned on our behalf. To God be the glory forever for that incredible gift of His Son :)

Also if you doubt our incapacity to do any good, have a look at these Scriptures:

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

Even Paul here below makes his case for salvation by grace through faith, because we all have sinned and fallen away from the glory of God. There is no way to work ourselves back, not even a little, only Gods grace in Jesus Christ can save us.

Romans 3:22-24 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

I hope you will think and pray about these things my friend. God bless you!
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lesterb
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Re: Grace

Post by lesterb »

Paul wrote: Also if you doubt our incapacity to do any good, have a look at these Scriptures:
So what are you all including here as doing good? Are you saying that we can't even choose to follow Christ?
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cmbl
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Re: Grace

Post by cmbl »

Ernie wrote:
Paul wrote:Well brother if you look at how the Apostle Paul speaks of salvation in Ephesians 1, there is not a word about meeting any conditions for it except trusting in Christ. Rather what he is doing is fully emphasizing Gods Sovereign love and grace in the giving of it.
This assumes that Ephesians 1 says everything that God wants to say about salvation - an assumption I don't hold to. There are lots more passages in the New Testament. Jesus definitely talks about conditions.


It really comes down to how a person reads the Bible.
I agree. Jesus talks about conditions...as do James, John, Paul, Luke...

The Bible is not structured like a theological treatise. In a theological treatise, you have Article 1: Baptism, in which you say everything you have to say about Baptism. The OT and NT are not structured that way; I think we run into problems when we try to treat them as if they are.
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Ernie
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Re: Grace

Post by Ernie »

Paul wrote:Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Anybody who pulls out verses like this, to talk about our capacity or incapacity to do good, without looking at the context of the verses has no further audience with me.
If you listen to this recording, then I may be willing to talk further.


Don't take this as a personal offense but we are operating from completely different worldviews as it relates to how we read the Bible and use verses from here and there to build a theology.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Ernie wrote:
Paul wrote:Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Anybody who pulls out verses like this, to talk about our capacity or incapacity to do good, without looking at the context of the verses has no further audience with me.
If you listen to this recording, then I may be willing to talk further.


Don't take this as a personal offense but we are operating from completely different worldviews as it relates to how we read the Bible and use verses from here and there to build a theology.
Well I don't take it as a personal offense, and I surely didn't mean to be offensive. You pick out one verse out of my post to criticize me for not taking in the context, and that is fine, but if you look at Paul's references in Galatians he didn't feel the need to expound on the entire context of the verses he mentions. So the criticism is hardly fair, and seems just an easy spring-board to ignore what I was saying.

But I don't mean to be contentious, I know that advocating grace and Evangelism on an anabaptist forum is like selling pepsi in a coca cola factory. But it shouldn't be that way I think, since it is most definitely Biblical to live by grace through faith and to have a heart to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with others.

And believe it or not I have alot of love and respect for the anabaptists, you have a rich heritage of radically following Christ - even to the point of giving up your life for Him, when it comes to the early anabaptists - and I admire that. I love to read the martyr's mirror aswell, but that radical nature of the early swiss brethren seems to largely have vanished after the persecution stopped.. and transformed into a lifestyle of complete seperation. And it doesn't seem to represent the radical nature of the Apostles or the early swiss brethren anymore, also in the way they Evangelised. For instance Felix Manz was an Evangelist and was martyred for his unwavering convictions on Baptism.

And if you look at the New Testament, isn't that exactly the same kind of persecution, suffering and martyrdom the Apostles faced, for the sake of preaching the Gospel. If we are silent, no wonder we don't suffer persecution, the world and the devil are okay with silence and obscurity, but once we boldly proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ you will see all powers of hell stirred up to persecute the Church. And even though we shouldn't necessarily wish for it, the Church has always been the most thriving when persecuted.
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

lesterb wrote: So what are you all including here as doing good? Are you saying that we can't even choose to follow Christ?
We are called to it, and God enables us to do so by His Spirit. So this is a mystery, Peter confesses Jesus as the Christ, and Jesus tells him that it was His Father in heaven that revealed this to him. So from our perspective it can seem like an act of the will in following Christ, even though God is the One that draws us to do so by His Spirit. That is basically how I believe Scripture explains it.

Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
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