Grace

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Paul
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Grace

Post by Paul »

Allright so I am new here at mennonet, but I have been lurking around at mennodiscuss before. At mennodiscuss I came across a topic on grace which text for some reason I saved in a document because I thought it was foundational to the faith, and perhaps for a time like this to discuss. I don't recall who wrote it, but I agree with what he or she was saying and I'd love to hear your views on it.
I have been pondering just how our views regarding God's grace has a direct relationship on how we share the Gospel. My own understanding of the Gospel is that it is 'good news' about the grace of God. The 'Gospel of Jesus Christ' and the 'Grace of God', to me, are one and the same.

If I have any thoughts that I somehow deserve eternal life by my performance as a believer, am I not confusing what grace is really all about ? I am saved by grace as it is a gift of God. It is a gift I don't deserve nor can I merit it through my deeds but rather something given me by the unmerited favor of God. If I could not merit the gift to receive it, can I merit it to keep it ?

In my experience in Anabaptism, and it is limited (10 years in an MB church), but knowing to some extent the various dozen or so other Anabaptists brands in our area, I don't see much enthusiasm for evangelism. The MB group I was with were leading the way, so to speak, and had ministries like the Alpha Course and other outreach programs. But, by and large, most Anabaptists/Mennonites in our area, outside of one or two more, basically were concerned with their own group and raising young people up in their tradition.

I'm wondering if this lack of evangelistic interest has some connection with one's view of grace. It seems to me although many might say that we cannot do good deeds to be born again, we must do enough good works to remain born again and therefore they view 'staying saved' more as some unspecified level of obedience we must pursue in 'fear and trembling' hoping that, in the end, we will be saved. And, by the way, this is not just Anabaptists.
Seems to me there are various Christian brands that take this approach. The focus then seems to become more on being obedient enough to qualify as saved. At that point it is confusing to me that eternal life then appears more earned rather than it being a gift. Then the focus is not so much to reach others with the Gospel but rather concentrate on 'staying saved' and trying to raise a family in that 'staying saved' environment.

I hope this is making sense as I try to express what I think I am observing.

In my experience, those who viewed grace as a gift of God that they really did not in any way deserve, were more focused on sharing this gift with others who are also non-deserving. They reached out to many unchurched and saw the miraculous conversion experiences that came with the message of grace (unmerited favor). My immediate family was one of these unchurched families. And upon their conversion, the focus on being a disciple was to share about this free gift of God as very primary. It was about this good news of God's grace. However, some of those same assemblies, over time, changed their focus to be more internally focused on sanctification and seemed to lose their outreach enthusiasm. It became all about who appeared the most Christian and along with that about 'hanging on' to one's own salvation.

Well, I ramble on but I would be interested in what others think and/or have experienced in this area and if they believe what we focus on in our local assemblies is related to our view of grace.

No one has responded to this thread but before it dies a couple more related thoughts came to me so I'll post them -

Speaking about the initial gift(s) we receive by the grace of God, I mentioned, eternal life and we also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And this gift of the Spirit provides me with many things - He is my helper, my comforter, my teacher, He knows my weaknesses, He is my advocate, He teaches me how to pray, He provides me with power, He gives me understanding about Jesus, He convicts me of sin, etc ,etc. Many, many things that we have access to through the Holy Spirit if we have the Spirit in us.

And how I understand and relate to these various aspects of having the gift of the Holy Spirit, I think is crucial to the degree that I will experience life in the Spirit. For instance, if I have faith to believe the Holy Spirit provides me with power over sin, I will receive this power over sin for it is by grace I receive through faith. Jesus said after the Holy Spirit comes upon us we shall receive power and be witnesses unto Him. If I have faith to believe this to be true, then I will experience this gift of power to witness. I will not be ashamed of the Gospel as it is the power of God unto salvation.
And also that this power is supernatural power, the same power that raised Christ from the dead and it brings life to our mortal bodies.

Well, I could go on and on but I guess I'm trying to say that who I believe I am in Christ and what Christ has given me as gifts of grace is how I will operate either as walking by faith in the gift of the Holy Spirit or walking by faith in my own power, understandings, abilities, contentment, peace, joy, etc, etc. I got up this morning thinking about this application of faith in what I believe about the Holy Spirit and realize I don't believe enough about what it all means to have this gift of the Holy Spirit. If I want to experience God's unmerited favor in a greater dimension, I need to meditate and believe
in what it means to have the Holy Spirit within me and act upon this by exercising faith in these truths.

Don't know who this word may be for besides myself but if anyone has anything to share on this subject, I would love to consider your understandings. And although I focused on grace and how it relates to evangelism, I don't mind bunny trails related to God's grace, the need for faith to have it operational and what you think about this power we have in the gift of the Spirit.

Not driving a wedge between believing and doing:

Good observations. I resist driving a wedge between believing and doing, so if Christians don't act like they believe in eternal torment, they probably don't, regardless of doctrinal statements. If we don't have much belief in the overwhelming grace of God that changes the undeserving, then we will not bother much with evangelizing people who don't seem deserving.
Well nobody responded to that thread, but I hope to revive it still ;). What are your thoughts on Gods grace in Jesus Christ and our call to Evangelism? How do amish or mennonites view reaching out to the lost? If I recall correctly, historically the anabaptists were very active in Evangelism?
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MaxPC
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Re: Grace

Post by MaxPC »

Great topic, Paul. Lester would be a good resource for this I would think, based upon his post here.

Hopefully more will post on this important theology.
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Josh
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Re: Grace

Post by Josh »

I don't think there's a solid connection between lack of an evangelical view of grace and evangelism.

Nobody links salvation to grace more than Reformed people, but just like we Anabaptists, they often bemoan their lack of evangelism (using the term the "frozen chosen").
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Josh
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Re: Grace

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Generally speaking, Anabaptists focused a lot less on a "get out of hell free" card and a lot more on trying to just obey what Jesus said to do. (Preaching the gospel and believing in Jesus happen to be two things he told us to do, but they are by far from the only things he said are what people in his kingdom do.)

It's easy to fill up churches by preaching that you just have to believe the right opinions and, wham, now you're a Christian, and guess what, you won't go to hell now, and just to give you a bit of extra comfort, it's all "by grace" and thus your lack of obedience won't really have any bearing on whether you go to heaven or hell.

It's tough to fill up churches by preaching obedience to Jesus' message. But Jesus himself preached his message and told people to follow him. I'm not sure why we feel we can improve on that.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Grace

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Hmm... Seems as if this person would be more comfortable in a Baptist church?
Eternal security and a flare of worklessness seem to cornerstones of this post. The idea that God's grace is equivalent with salvation, and that nothing we can do (literally.. nothing) can change that, leads to a lot of issues. God's grace is a gift, and he loves all of his creation, but he is still a righteous judge- the fact that he loves us is not what gets us to heaven. Free will has to step in some where.
The citation of the evangelical mission also makes me think this person would be more satisfied in a Protestant church. Winning over souls and then having little to do with them, or not encouraging a holy lifestyle, works out for very few of these "converts".
Also, the part about the degree to which our lives are impacted by the Spirit depending upon the intellectual acknowledgement of it all seems very flawed. To me, that is almost indistinguishable from "Name it and Claim it" Christianity.
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silentreader
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Re: Grace

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I would like to suggest that Scripturally there are two (types?) of grace, saving grace, which is the free unmerited grace God provides for our salvation, and enabling grace, which, in the power of the Holy Spirit, enables us to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. Often there is focus on either one to the exclusion of the other, but I believe that for the Christian the two are inseparable.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Grace

Post by KingdomBuilder »

silentreader wrote:I would like to suggest that Scripturally there are two (types?) of grace, saving grace, which is the free unmerited grace God provides for our salvation, and enabling grace, which, in the power of the Holy Spirit, enables us to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. Often there is focus on either one to the exclusion of the other, but I believe that for the Christian the two are inseparable.
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MaxPC
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Re: Grace

Post by MaxPC »

KingdomBuilder wrote:
silentreader wrote:I would like to suggest that Scripturally there are two (types?) of grace, saving grace, which is the free unmerited grace God provides for our salvation, and enabling grace, which, in the power of the Holy Spirit, enables us to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. Often there is focus on either one to the exclusion of the other, but I believe that for the Christian the two are inseparable.
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

silentreader wrote:I would like to suggest that Scripturally there are two (types?) of grace, saving grace, which is the free unmerited grace God provides for our salvation, and enabling grace, which, in the power of the Holy Spirit, enables us to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. Often there is focus on either one to the exclusion of the other, but I believe that for the Christian the two are inseparable.
Well there's two types of grace I think Scripturally, general grace given to every human being - the fact that we are clothed, get food, watch a sunrise etc. is Gods general grace - and then Gods saving grace for those that believe in Jesus Christ. And that saving grace starts with justification and includes sanctification I believe.
Josh wrote:I don't think there's a solid connection between lack of an evangelical view of grace and evangelism.

Nobody links salvation to grace more than Reformed people, but just like we Anabaptists, they often bemoan their lack of evangelism (using the term the "frozen chosen").


I think it is not just a reformed view, but it is what Paul taught in many of his epistles. Without Christ we can do nothing, and yet we are called to follow Him and take up our cross. But is there any Evangelism done now among the Anabaptists? Be back later.. God bless!
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Josh
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Re: Grace

Post by Josh »

There is lots of evangelism done by all kinds of Anabaptists:
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