Grace

[RZehr]

If God picks and chooses some people for heaven and some people for conscious eternal torment, exactly what kind of God is he?

What kind of God that we think that would make him, is not really relevant to whether this is true or not.
God is not worried about our opinion of His decisions about this matter. I don't think He is not trying to win our approval.
I believe our place is to work within his plan, not bend him to fit us.
I expect you mostly agree with this, but anyway.

The rest is what God's character is like as described in the Bible. It doesn't talk at all about him making wicked people on purpose with no ability to repent.

I see where you're coming from. I was focused on the last part of your post.

[Paul]

If God picks and chooses some people for heaven and some people for conscious eternal torment, exactly what kind of God is he?

How did you get on this topic all of a sudden? I agree with Rzehr though, who are we to argue with God? To put it in the words of Paul in Romans 9, shall the thing formed say unto Him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus? He doesn't need us to agree with Him, His truth stands as a rock for eternity no matter what our personal feelings are.

Is obedience a condition and/or a choice?

Obedience or disobedience flows out of our nature, when we fell in disobedience in paradise, our nature became corrupted and disobedient. We don't need to teach our children to be disobedient, sin comes natural from our fallen nature. So to restore the lost relationship with God is just not as simple as "choose to do good", if the root is corrupt then we are simply by nature in no way inclined or capable fom our hearts to do anything that is morally good and acceptable towards God according to His Holy standard. Which by the way doesn't excuse us, as if it let's us off the hook to live whatever way we want - but what it should do is bring us at the feet of God to confess our sin and beg for mercy. Because God is not only Righteous and Just, He is also merciful and gracious to extend forgiveness.

And to lawfully forgive us, payment had to be made for the sin and God had to come down Himself as the Son, to take on our nature and do what none of us can, live a Perfect and Holy life in obedience to the Father - on our behalf - and bring the Sacrifice for our sins so we could truly be reconciled to the Father based on Jesus Christs Holy and sinless Life. Whose accepted Sacrifice was confirmed by His raising from the dead - death being the penalty for our sins - God declaring that His wrath had indeed been satifsfied over our sins through Jesus Christ.

So if we are born again by faith in Jesus Christ, and received a new nature from God, our will has changed, then we live through the Holy Spirit and we will find that obedience to do Gods will now comes from that new nature - not as a legalistic burden to pay off salvation and hope to satisfy Gods wrath by outweighing our evil with our good works - but in joy and gratitude for the grace we have received in Jesus Christ and for what God has done for us, we feel compelled to serve Him and obey Him out of love. But our first act of obedience should be coming to Jesus Christ, putting our trust and faith in Him. And that's a choice, Christ calls us to come to Him, to put our faith in Him for our salvation and we can either obey and drop our all own righteousness to be clothed with His by grace, or we can refuse to humble ourselves but we will be lost in our own righteousness as the pharisees.

[lesterb]

So does God give this invitation to everyone, or to a select group only?

Well God has intended for us not to hide our light under a bushel, but put it on a candlestick so it might light the room right? So God wants the Gospel invitation to go out to everyone, because God so loved the world. But He uses people to accomplish His plans, and it takes us to be obedient to Gods will and actually go into the world and sow the seed.

That doesn't really answer my question. I know that Calvinists will say that God wants us to evangelize and bring the good news to everyone. But most will then turn around and say that only those who God calls will respond.

So maybe I can rephrase my question. Do you believe in the free will of man? Or does the sovereignty of God over ride that?

I have a friend who was a good Christian brother until the family started attending a Calvinistic Baptist church. He had always struggled with assurance, and now believes that he isn't one of the "chosen". His wife and son are, but they don't consider him to be saved. He told me that he is submitted to God's plan for him, and he will continue to serve God, even if God hasn't chosen him.

Sometimes a person has to actually see the results of a theological teaching to understand its implications.

[Paul]

That doesn't really answer my question. I know that Calvinists will say that God wants us to evangelize and bring the good news to everyone. But most will then turn around and say that only those who God calls will respond.

So maybe I can rephrase my question. Do you believe in the free will of man? Or does the sovereignty of God over ride that?

I have a friend who was a good Christian brother until the family started attending a Calvinistic Baptist church. He had always struggled with assurance, and now believes that he isn't one of the "chosen". His wife and son are, but they don't consider him to be saved. He told me that he is submitted to God's plan for him, and he will continue to serve God, even if God hasn't chosen him.

Sometimes a person has to actually see the results of a theological teaching to understand its implications.

Well we are to share the Gospel, and sow the seed, and it is God that gives the increase right? So I do believe in sovereign election, the Bible clearly speaks the "elect", and the fact that believers have been chosen in Jesus Christ from before the foundation of the world. As in:

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

But when it comes to Evangelism, we simply do not know who is elect and who is not. It shouldn't even slightly be our concern as that is Gods eternal decree and not for us to look into or make assumptions about. I think Charles Spurgeon once said something like, if people would have an "elect" stamp on their back, he would only preach to them, but since they don't he believes God calls us to preach the Gospel to everyone indiscriminately and call them to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

Also in the Scriptures, this truth is always held forth as an encouragement to believers, the surety of our salvation in Jesus Christ for me personally is a huge comfort under trials and discouraging circumstances. But as far as I know it is never mentioned as something to be looked into or considered before salvation, the Apostles weren't preaching "sovereign election" to unbelievers, they were preaching a crucified Savior, and in the epistles to the Churches there is mention of election as a means of comfort.

But the way your friend applied election, and perhaps his Church teaches, I think is a very very sad reality in calvinism. I come from a calvinist background, and I am a Baptist now that still holds to "calvinism" although I prefer to simply call it the Biblical teachings of grace (though also an "anabaptist" as I was sprinkled on as an infant but got baptised on confession of faith as an adult a little over a year ago in my Baptist church), but when election gets too much emphasis, it becomes hyper-calvinism and I believe it really does become a doctrine of demons, laying open the disease of sin but keeping the medicine of Gods grace in Jesus Christ out of reach. I sadly see this around me on a daily basis, and trust me I have been - and am still - labouring for people to look to Jesus Christ for their salvation and the Lord has graciously changed some people around me of the sternest calvinist denominations that truly have come to know the Lord.

Election then becomes a stumbling block to prevent people from coming to Jesus Christ, to find their assurance in Him. But in the Bible election was never designed to keep us away from Christ, make us passive or to make us question our salvation. I just pray your friend will look away from this doctrine that men have made into a stumblingblock, and instead of perhaps looking inside himself for "signs of election", or for "deeper conviction of sin", look to a crucified Saviour that shed His blood for our sins, because Jesus Christ is more than willing and able to save all that come to Him. So ask your friend whether he is a sinner, and if he agrees, then tell him Gods plan for sinners is to save us, and that this is why He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross. If he doesn't agree, ask him whether he ever told a lie in his life, and show him Gods Holy Law that condemns lying, and Gods Word that says all liars shall have their part in the Lake of Fire. But if he travels in calvinist circles I am sure he will agree he is a sinner. Ezekiel 33:11 For me is always a good verse to show Gods willingness to save sinners. And there are many others, Christ came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. The publican confessed 'have mercy on me, a sinner' and went home justified. (just paraphrasing) Etc. And John 1:12 is a useful verse, to show him that election isn't everything, that we must receive Jesus Christ. I will pray for your friend! God bless you.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[lesterb]

That doesn't really answer my question. I know that Calvinists will say that God wants us to evangelize and bring the good news to everyone. But most will then turn around and say that only those who God calls will respond.

So maybe I can rephrase my question. Do you believe in the free will of man? Or does the sovereignty of God over ride that?

I have a friend who was a good Christian brother until the family started attending a Calvinistic Baptist church. He had always struggled with assurance, and now believes that he isn't one of the "chosen". His wife and son are, but they don't consider him to be saved. He told me that he is submitted to God's plan for him, and he will continue to serve God, even if God hasn't chosen him.

Sometimes a person has to actually see the results of a theological teaching to understand its implications.

Well we are to share the Gospel, and sow the seed, and it is God that gives the increase right? So I do believe in sovereign election, the Bible clearly speaks the "elect", and the fact that believers have been chosen in Jesus Christ from before the foundation of the world. As in:

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

But when it comes to Evangelism, we simply do not know who is elect and who is not. It shouldn't even slightly be our concern as that is Gods eternal decree and not for us to look into or make assumptions about. I think Charles Spurgeon once said something like, if people would have an "elect" stamp on their back, he would only preach to them, but since they don't he believes God calls us to preach the Gospel to everyone indiscriminately and call them to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

Also in the Scriptures, this truth is always held forth as an encouragement to believers, the surety of our salvation in Jesus Christ for me personally is a huge comfort under trials and discouraging circumstances. But as far as I know it is never mentioned as something to be looked into or considered before salvation, the Apostles weren't preaching "sovereign election" to unbelievers, they were preaching a crucified Savior, and in the epistles to the Churches there is mention of election as a means of comfort.

But the way your friend applied election, and perhaps his Church teaches, I think is a very very sad reality in calvinism. I come from a calvinist background, and I am a Baptist now that still holds to "calvinism" although I prefer to simply call it the Biblical teachings of grace (though also an "anabaptist" as I was sprinkled on as an infant but got baptised on confession of faith as an adult a little over a year ago in my Baptist church), but when election gets too much emphasis, it becomes hyper-calvinism and I believe it really does become a doctrine of demons, laying open the disease of sin but keeping the medicine of Gods grace in Jesus Christ out of reach. I sadly see this around me on a daily basis, and trust me I have been - and am still - labouring for people to look to Jesus Christ for their salvation and the Lord has graciously changed some people around me of the sternest calvinist denominations that truly have come to know the Lord.

Election then becomes a stumbling block to prevent people from coming to Jesus Christ, to find their assurance in Him. But in the Bible election was never designed to keep us away from Christ, make us passive or to make us question our salvation. I just pray your friend will look away from this doctrine that men have made into a stumblingblock, and instead of perhaps looking inside himself for "signs of election", or for "deeper conviction of sin", look to a crucified Saviour that shed His blood for our sins, because Jesus Christ is more than willing and able to save all that come to Him. So ask your friend whether he is a sinner, and if he agrees, then tell him Gods plan for sinners is to save us, and that this is why He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross. If he doesn't agree, ask him whether he ever told a lie in his life, and show him Gods Holy Law that condemns lying, and Gods Word that says all liars shall have their part in the Lake of Fire. But if he travels in calvinist circles I am sure he will agree he is a sinner. Ezekiel 33:11 For me is always a good verse to show Gods willingness to save sinners. And there are many others, Christ came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. The publican confessed 'have mercy on me, a sinner' and went home justified. (just paraphrasing) Etc. And John 1:12 is a useful verse, to show him that election isn't everything, that we must receive Jesus Christ. I will pray for your friend! God bless you.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Thanks. That answers my question. I know that Anabaptists often jump to the extreme definitions, and it is sometimes good to hear people explain their beliefs themselves. We probably aren't as far apart as we feel we are, when it comes down to it.

That doesn't mean that I agree with everything you are saying here. I feel that freedom of choice doesn't exist as long as God is pre-screening who gets to choose.

[Neto]

As an illustration, allow me to ask an unrelated question. If a person wanted to marry a certain person who did not have any interest in them, but if "love potions" really worked, if this person then forced the other person to love them by the potion or some sort of incantation, would they really feel loved, deep in their innermost being? I think that they would always know that since it was forced, and not of that person's free will, that it was not real love. I see God's willingness to allow us a choice in the same way. If he wanted robots, he could have just made everyone believe. After all, the Scripture tells us that he does not will that anyone perish. But some people get caught up in the idea that free will means that people are claiming that we have, in and of ourselves, the ability to choose. We don't; or you could say that God gives us that ability, because he wants willing children. God's grace IS (in my understanding) irresistible. But he allows us to resist the irresistible - gives us the ability to resist his great love, because he wants children who chose to love him. There is great rejoicing in heaven when someone exercises their God-given free will to choose to love & obey him. But there must also be great sorrow and tears when someone exercises that same free will to choose to reject his love & grace.

[silentreader]

As an illustration, allow me to ask an unrelated question. If a person wanted to marry a certain person who did not have any interest in them, but if "love potions" really worked, if this person then forced the other person to love them by the potion or some sort of incantation, would they really feel loved, deep in their innermost being? I think that they would always know that since it was forced, and not of that person's free will, that it was not real love. I see God's willingness to allow us a choice in the same way. If he wanted robots, he could have just made everyone believe. After all, the Scripture tells us that he does not will that anyone perish. But some people get caught up in the idea that free will means that people are claiming that we have, in and of ourselves, the ability to choose. We don't; or you could say that God gives us that ability, because he wants willing children. God's grace IS (in my understanding) irresistible. But he allows us to resist the irresistible - gives us the ability to resist his great love, because he wants children who chose to love him. There is great rejoicing in heaven when someone exercises their God-given free will to choose to love & obey him. But there must also be great sorrow and tears when someone exercises that same free will to choose to reject his love & grace.

I'm pretty sure I agree with what you said, if I understood you correctly.
We see in Scripture God's sovereign will, and we see man's 'free' will or responsibility of choice.
In our understanding these two would seem to be irreconcilable opposites, but they are not, in God's plan.

[silentreader]

As an illustration, allow me to ask an unrelated question. If a person wanted to marry a certain person who did not have any interest in them, but if "love potions" really worked, if this person then forced the other person to love them by the potion or some sort of incantation, would they really feel loved, deep in their innermost being? I think that they would always know that since it was forced, and not of that person's free will, that it was not real love. I see God's willingness to allow us a choice in the same way. If he wanted robots, he could have just made everyone believe. After all, the Scripture tells us that he does not will that anyone perish. But some people get caught up in the idea that free will means that people are claiming that we have, in and of ourselves, the ability to choose. We don't; or you could say that God gives us that ability, because he wants willing children. God's grace IS (in my understanding) irresistible. But he allows us to resist the irresistible - gives us the ability to resist his great love, because he wants children who chose to love him. There is great rejoicing in heaven when someone exercises their God-given free will to choose to love & obey him. But there must also be great sorrow and tears when someone exercises that same free will to choose to reject his love & grace.

I'm pretty sure I agree with what you said, if I understood you correctly.
We see in Scripture God's sovereign will, and we see man's 'free' will or responsibility of choice.
In our understanding these two would seem to be irreconcilable opposites, but they are not, in God's plan.

As an example, I think it was our very own Robert way back on MD, that said something like the following:
Q: What happens when an irresistible force meets an unmovable object?
A: An incomprehensible event.

[Paul]

As an illustration, allow me to ask an unrelated question. If a person wanted to marry a certain person who did not have any interest in them, but if "love potions" really worked, if this person then forced the other person to love them by the potion or some sort of incantation, would they really feel loved, deep in their innermost being? I think that they would always know that since it was forced, and not of that person's free will, that it was not real love. I see God's willingness to allow us a choice in the same way. If he wanted robots, he could have just made everyone believe. After all, the Scripture tells us that he does not will that anyone perish. But some people get caught up in the idea that free will means that people are claiming that we have, in and of ourselves, the ability to choose. We don't; or you could say that God gives us that ability, because he wants willing children. God's grace IS (in my understanding) irresistible. But he allows us to resist the irresistible - gives us the ability to resist his great love, because he wants children who chose to love him. There is great rejoicing in heaven when someone exercises their God-given free will to choose to love & obey him. But there must also be great sorrow and tears when someone exercises that same free will to choose to reject his love & grace.

Yep, to me it is a question of sovereignty. Are we sovereign as human beings? Do we decide and control everything by the excercise of our free will? That is what some churches seem to proclaim for instance in the "Name it and claim it" type of Gospel. Which is ofcourse the extreme side of "free will" theology and has not much to do with following Jesus at all. God seems to become more or less a servant - or a magic word - to excercise our free will and get whatever (often temporal) blessings we want to speak out over our lives. Sort of similar to Henley's "I am the master of my own soul, the captain of my own faith". From that perspective we seem like half-gods that can call whatever we want into existence by the sheer exercise of our mind and will. Ofcourse not so in reality, but the idea is very appealing to fallen man.

But when the Bible says that we are but dust, and that God is Sovereign over all, now that is a very humbling perspective which makes us small and God exalted. But it is the right and true perspective of reality that I think we should always bear in the backs of our mind, and I am glad that God does ultimately rule over all and we are not the not the masters of our own soul and the captains of our own fate. Because if the destiny of our soul were completely up to us we would all ruin ourselves everlastingly, unless God intervened with His love and mercy.

Now that being said, I agree God wants willing children and He does call us to repent and believe in Jesus Christ which gives us the responsibility to respond to the Gospel invitation and to follow and obey Jesus in our lives and actions out of love. In the children's "sermon" in our church this morning, the children were asked whether they were excited whenever mommy went away for a day, and she came back? And why they weren't as thrilled when one of the neighbours came by the house for a visit? Well one of the children responded that it was because they love their mother more. And the teacher explained that likewise if we love Jesus, we should be longing for His return when we can be with Him. If we don't, we won't care much. Well I thought it was a good illustration that love for Christ should be our deepest motivation as you said, and that can't be given by a "love potion" but must truly come from the heart.

And as was mentioned already, these seem irreconcilable to our understanding, but gladly they are not in Gods plan. I think we should just be careful to leave both intact and pray for wisdom and humility when to exalt Gods Sovereignty, and when to emphasize man's responsibility and duty to act. Both have their proper place in Gods plan I think.

[Sudsy]

I suspect that this post was written by Sudsy. He consistently voiced a strong concern for reaching out to the lost, questioned eternal punishment, and was also in an MB congregation for a period of years. I think that if you could read a wide range of his comments as he posted on MennoDiscuss, some of the objections to the quotation here might be answered. (As far as his background goes, he was in a Pentecostal congregation before being involved in the MB congregation, and his father had had a total change of direction spiritually, and had become a bold witness to the truth of the Gospel, often preaching on street corners.)

I have not been able to read all of the responses here carefully (just a quick read-through at this point), but I do think that we too easily fall in the the trap of thinking that "We are saved by the grace of God through faith, but we stay saved through good works." I've started turning the phrase "grace of God" around, and make it "God's grace", because 'Grace' has become personified to the point that people forget whose grace it is. The emphasis should be on the fact that it comes from God. No other grace has any meaning. Like the hymn, Amazing Grace: "Through many dangers, trials, and snares I have already come. Twas Grace that brought me safe thus far, and Grace will lead me home." I like the song, but when I sing it by myself, I change the above lines as follows: "Through many dangers, trials, and snares I have already come. Twas Christ who brought me safe thus far, and Christ will lead me home."

I'm back. Thanks everyone for your discussion on this thread that used a previous post of mine. Some very good conversation here. I think it was good that regardless of whether or not you are a Calvinist, we agree that the Gospel is to be shared with everyone.

On my faith journey I have sat under certain opposing views of how God saves (i.e. whether or not we are so depraved God must first give us a new heart before we can willingly receive the gift of eternal life) and most recently after a couple years in a Baptist church I am now back in a Mennonite Brethren fellowship. My main curiosity was and still is why so many of us born-again claiming Christians don't share our faith as those we read of in the early church. My conclusion, todate, and still learning, is that we are not looking closely enough at what enabled new believers to boldly share their faith and to operate in ministries like Jesus did.

To me, it is about our understandings of the work of the Holy Spirit (HS) in and through us. Scripture says we receive the HS when we believe and receive Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. We are given a new heart that now influences our desire to be like Christ. But this HS must become our guide and power and will not force His way into our becoming Christ like. I guess this shows I believe God has given us a will and freedom to use it as He works in us to do His will. To me, love is not real love, if we are just made into puppets that must love or must obey.

Getting back to the HS in us, I believe scripture teaches that for us to do ministry (i.e. evangelism) and get passed our fear of man we need an on-going filling of the HS. Jesus started his ministry with the HS anointing Him. Jesus told his followers to wait until they were filled with the HS before they launched out into ministry. And what specifically did they pray for when they were filled with the Spirit ? Boldness to proclaim the Gospel. And they sure were facing much more than we do today as many were beaten and thrown in jail and worse. Our fears in North America are not much more than some verbal ridicule and that alone shuts us up. We have been brainwashed to think 'when all else fails use words'. Wherever that came from is not in scripture though, is it ? The NT says words are a necessity - Romans 10:14.

So, is that what we are hearing today being prayed for in our churches ? In my expreience, no. Rather various forms of methodolgy is sought to evangelize and/or sharing our faith is viewed as a special ministry for a few but not all of us. And often what gets lost in some of these is the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ. New believers still see themselves as saved sinners rather than saints that belong to a new Kingdom with a King ruling them. A King that is loved and one where the HS points to in such a way that to follow is not burdensome but excitingly joyful.

And when it comes to dealing with temptation, again lets look at Jesus in Luke 4:1-2. Jesus was said to be 'full of the Holy Spirit' and was 'led by the Spirit' when He went to be tempted by the devil. This suggests to me that without HS ongoing fillings we are not prepared to deal with sin in our lives.

Just saying that I think the main issue with not evangelizing due to fear of man and struggling to be obedient is in our relationship with the Holy Spirit. Are we experiencing His enabling power to overcome sins and to energize us with a love for lost souls that causes us to evanngelize. Not something we feel obligated to do but something we can't wait to do.

When I think of some of the new converts I have been around in my past, their first love for Christ caused them to share with their friends regardless of ridicule. Later on some backed down and fear took over. I think the HS filling us returns us to this first love for Christ and restors this boldness.

Sorry I ramble away on this and I would love to hear, especially from those who share their faith regularly, if what I am saying is the key. Bascially we are spineless Christians with little impact on the world because we are not filled and walking in step with the Holy Spirit, myself very much included. If you are one who has this boldness, could you share with us a recent experience of sharing your faith and how you sensed the guiding of the Spierit as you did.

Thanks Neto and Josh for your comment elsewhere on being missed. This was how I found this thread to get involved again. Look forward to more sharing. Thanks Paul for bringing it up and I appreciate so much what you shared todate.