Grace

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Re: Grace

Post by RZehr »

Spot on Sudsy! Welcome back!
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Sudsy wrote: I'm back. Thanks everyone for your discussion on this thread that used a previous post of mine. Some very good conversation here. I think it was good that regardless of whether or not you are a Calvinist, we agree that the Gospel is to be shared with everyone.

On my faith journey I have sat under certain opposing views of how God saves (i.e. whether or not we are so depraved God must first give us a new heart before we can willingly receive the gift of eternal life) and most recently after a couple years in a Baptist church I am now back in a Mennonite Brethren fellowship. My main curiosity was and still is why so many of us born-again claiming Christians don't share our faith as those we read of in the early church. My conclusion, todate, and still learning, is that we are not looking closely enough at what enabled new believers to boldly share their faith and to operate in ministries like Jesus did.

To me, it is about our understandings of the work of the Holy Spirit (HS) in and through us. Scripture says we receive the HS when we believe and receive Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. We are given a new heart that now influences our desire to be like Christ. But this HS must become our guide and power and will not force His way into our becoming Christ like. I guess this shows I believe God has given us a will and freedom to use it as He works in us to do His will. To me, love is not real love, if we are just made into puppets that must love or must obey.

Getting back to the HS in us, I believe scripture teaches that for us to do ministry (i.e. evangelism) and get passed our fear of man we need an on-going filling of the HS. Jesus started his ministry with the HS anointing Him. Jesus told his followers to wait until they were filled with the HS before they launched out into ministry. And what specifically did they pray for when they were filled with the Spirit ? Boldness to proclaim the Gospel. And they sure were facing much more than we do today as many were beaten and thrown in jail and worse. Our fears in North America are not much more than some verbal ridicule and that alone shuts us up. We have been brainwashed to think 'when all else fails use words'. Wherever that came from is not in scripture though, is it ? The NT says words are a necessity - Romans 10:14.

So, is that what we are hearing today being prayed for in our churches ? In my expreience, no. Rather various forms of methodolgy is sought to evangelize and/or sharing our faith is viewed as a special ministry for a few but not all of us. And often what gets lost in some of these is the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ. New believers still see themselves as saved sinners rather than saints that belong to a new Kingdom with a King ruling them. A King that is loved and one where the HS points to in such a way that to follow is not burdensome but excitingly joyful.

And when it comes to dealing with temptation, again lets look at Jesus in Luke 4:1-2. Jesus was said to be 'full of the Holy Spirit' and was 'led by the Spirit' when He went to be tempted by the devil. This suggests to me that without HS ongoing fillings we are not prepared to deal with sin in our lives.

Just saying that I think the main issue with not evangelizing due to fear of man and struggling to be obedient is in our relationship with the Holy Spirit. Are we experiencing His enabling power to overcome sins and to energize us with a love for lost souls that causes us to evanngelize. Not something we feel obligated to do but something we can't wait to do.

When I think of some of the new converts I have been around in my past, their first love for Christ caused them to share with their friends regardless of ridicule. Later on some backed down and fear took over. I think the HS filling us returns us to this first love for Christ and restors this boldness.

Sorry I ramble away on this and I would love to hear, especially from those who share their faith regularly, if what I am saying is the key. Bascially we are spineless Christians with little impact on the world because we are not filled and walking in step with the Holy Spirit, myself very much included. If you are one who has this boldness, could you share with us a recent experience of sharing your faith and how you sensed the guiding of the Spierit as you did.

Thanks Neto and Josh for your comment elsewhere on being missed. This was how I found this thread to get involved again. Look forward to more sharing. Thanks Paul for bringing it up and I appreciate so much what you shared todate.
Hey Sudsy, I didn't have much time to reply so far but it's great to see you are back and even found this topic! I agree that what you are saying is spot on, I have gone out maybe 5 or 6 times to Evangelise with a good friend of mine that does it fulltime. Evangelism is not a popular trade, it's incredibly hard work, but there's no better Employer you can wish for either, and the eternal benefits are unimaginable.
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Sudsy
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Re: Grace

Post by Sudsy »

Another thought on this subject - I mentioned recently spending a couple years in a Baptist church where I really appreciated the expository preaching of the pastor there. We took a book of the bible and walked through it verse by verse. Even though there were Calvinistic views expressed regarding election, etc. the pastor was always concerned about those in the congregation who may be thinking religious steps they took was their fruit reflecting they were saved. They said they believed, were baptised, joined the local church and participated to some degree in that fellowship. He often spoke on fruit of a new heart such as obedience to the King; love for others (saved and unsaved); a love for God's Word; personal relationship with God through prayer; etc. and that these areas came naturally and were not a 'have to' but a 'want to' in a beliver's life. In other words, to check out your own salvation and see if we really have been born of the Spirit or we have just become religious.

I think this can happen, especially to some of us who have grown up with a church background. Have we become religious or do we actually have a personal walk with God as a result of a changed heart ? In my experience I have been a wandering sheep at times but my heart kept drawing me back to what was most natural. I have really experienced the love of God that despite my wandering He sought me and restored me to fellowship. Amazing love ! He trully will not forsake us as one of His.

Well, don't know why I felt I should share this but that was brought to my attention this morning.
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Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Sudsy wrote: I think this can happen, especially to some of us who have grown up with a church background. Have we become religious or do we actually have a personal walk with God as a result of a changed heart ? In my experience I have been a wandering sheep at times but my heart kept drawing me back to what was most natural. I have really experienced the love of God that despite my wandering He sought me and restored me to fellowship. Amazing love ! He trully will not forsake us as one of His.

Well, don't know why I felt I should share this but that was brought to my attention this morning.
Well we probably have very different backgrounds, but I agree wholeheartedly that He will not forsake us even though we wander away. Amazing grace indeed!
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Sorry I ramble away on this and I would love to hear, especially from those who share their faith regularly, if what I am saying is the key. Bascially we are spineless Christians with little impact on the world because we are not filled and walking in step with the Holy Spirit, myself very much included. If you are one who has this boldness, could you share with us a recent experience of sharing your faith and how you sensed the guiding of the Spierit as you did.
There's a new political party here in Holland recently, now I know Anabaptists aren't into politics and I am not so much either, but this party more or less has one aim: proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The party is called "Jezus leeft" which translates to Jesus Lives. The leader, Florens van der Spek already made national television proclaiming Jesus as Lord, impressively handling the mockery and pointing to Jesus as God, and telling everyone we need Him for every aspect of our lives etc. and today in the newspaper he commented like this "Evangelism is the highest calling of a Christian. This also goes for politics. Geert Wilders needs the Lord Jesus, Alexander Pechtold needs the Lord Jesus (dutch politicians). Every human being needs the Lord Jesus." I really thought Amen brother! I usually don't vote but I might make an exception :D
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Hats Off
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Re: Grace

Post by Hats Off »

The problem is though that if he did manage to get elected, he would still have to rule a country, something many of us here feel would not work for a Christian. As well, as we so often find with leaders, leading can go to the leader's head.
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Paul
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Re: Grace

Post by Paul »

Hats Off wrote:The problem is though that if he did manage to get elected, he would still have to rule a country, something many of us here feel would not work for a Christian. As well, as we so often find with leaders, leading can go to the leader's head.
Yes you're right, but I don't think his party has any serious chance of getting many votes. I see it more as a strategy to share the Gospel, I think the apostle Paul would've grabbed any chance or platform to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

But I do believe strongly that as believers we are citizens to a different Kingdom, and we shouldn't get caught up in earthly politics and social structures at all, since they have no bearing on Christs Kingdom. I saw a few sermons by John Macarthur this past week on the Church, what it means to be a true Church etc. And it's funny how he spoke very positively about the anabaptists and your seperation from the state, your understanding that we are Kingdom Citizens that belong to a different King and authority. And Macarthur strongly criticised the reformers aswell as the Roman Catholics for their attempt to create a 'Protestant' or 'Roman Catholic' government and using the sword aswell as heresy of infant baptism, to establish their power and so children would immediately be identified as part of the protestant or catholic church/country.
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DrWojo
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Re: Grace

Post by DrWojo »

Brother Paul, I hope it’s okay to copy and paste so long an excerpt from Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s The Cost of Discipleship. Although not an Anabaptist, Brother Bonhoeffer backed his beliefs and sealed his testimony- he died a martyr under Hitler’s orders. I also hope others find his sentiments as challenging to provoke them to love and showing forth fruit in their lives, as have I.

Cheap grace is the deadly enemy of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace. Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing….

Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christian ‘conception’ of God. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins…. In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a denial of the living Word of God, in fact, a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God.

Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner.

Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before. ‘All for sin could not atone.’ Well, then, let the Christian live like the rest of the world, let him model himself on the world’s standards in every sphere of life, and not presumptuously aspire to live a different life under grace from his old life under sin….

Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance,baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession…. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.

Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy for which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble, it is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his nets and follows him.

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.

Costly grace is the sanctuary of God; it has to be protected from the world, and not thrown to the dogs. It is therefore the living word, the Word of God, which He speaks as it pleases Him. Costly grace confronts us as a gracious call to follow Jesus. It comes as a word of forgiveness to the broken spirit and the contrite heart. Grace is costly because it compels a man to submit to the yoke of Christ and follow him; it is grace because Jesus says: “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

On two separate occasions Peter received the call, “Follow me.” It was the first and last word Jesus spoke to his disciple (Mark 1.17; John 21.22). A whole life lies between these two calls. The first occasion was by the lake of Gennesareth, when Peter left his nets and his craft and followed Jesus at his word. The second occasion is when the Risen Lord finds him back again at his old trade. Once again it is by the lake of Gennesareth, and once again the call is: “Follow me.” Between the two calls lay a whole life of discipleship in the following of Christ. Half-way between them comes Peter’s confession, when he acknowledged Jesus as the Christ of God….

This grace was certainly not self-bestowed. It was the grace of Christ himself, now prevailing upon the disciple to leave all and follow him, now working in him that confession which to the world must sound like the ultimate blasphemy, now inviting Peter to the supreme fellowship of martyrdom for the Lord he had denied, and thereby forgiving him all his sins. In the life of Peter grace and discipleship are inseparable. He had received the grace which costs, (pg. 45-49).
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"Too often believers have trivialized goodness by concentrating on their various denominational brands of legalism, becoming a 'peculiar people' set at odd angles to the world rather than being an attractive light illuminating it." -Unknown
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