Addressing militancy, anger, & radicalization in our midst

[Wade]

Why would this be necessary when it much easier to monitor cellphone location data.

This reasoning requires EVERYONE to have a cell phone...
Does everyone have a cell phone?
Nope.

Most people do. Those who don’t aren’t really a concern for spreading the disease - chances are they don’t get out and about very much.

Most people are already monitored via their phone. Anyone who’s used Facebook, YouTube, played Zynga games like Words With Friends - ever - in your entire life - has already consented to location monitoring and tracking, for life. The technology is already in place to track things, although currently is only used for commercial purposes for advertising.

“Plain people” aren’t exempt. Lots of young people have snuck around a phone when they were in Rumspringa or went through a time of rebellion. Many also use such a phone for business.

If the government decides to track everyone, a lot of people will be surprised to find they’ve already been tracked during this entire crisis.

I don't think I am aware of even one "Plain" man who doesn't have a cell phone - they often have businesses that they need to answer calls with and it is useful for keeping contact with others in their church. Even if they haven't partook in anyone of those things or consented to being tracked - if we are in marshall law the government will track and monitor without consent.

[Josh]

The ones where I live are basically Old Order Amish, some of them avoid phones altogether. Many of the less strict groups have phones for business. Recently nearly all Amish banned smartphones so they just have feature phones (aka “flip phones”).

Having known about this technology for a while, I have just accepted that private business and the government knows every detail of my whereabouts. I accept this, unless we had severe persecution. Then I guess I’d get rid of my phone.

[Wade]

The ones where I live are basically Old Order Amish, some of them avoid phones altogether. Many of the less strict groups have phones for business. Recently nearly all Amish banned smartphones so they just have feature phones (aka “flip phones”).

Having known about this technology for a while, I have just accepted that private business and the government knows every detail of my whereabouts. I accept this, unless we had severe persecution. Then I guess I’d get rid of my phone.

Do flip phones not have the ability to track? I thought they still could.

And this is not my reason for not having a cellphone.

[Josh]

The ones where I live are basically Old Order Amish, some of them avoid phones altogether. Many of the less strict groups have phones for business. Recently nearly all Amish banned smartphones so they just have feature phones (aka “flip phones”).

Having known about this technology for a while, I have just accepted that private business and the government knows every detail of my whereabouts. I accept this, unless we had severe persecution. Then I guess I’d get rid of my phone.

Do flip phones not have the ability to track? I thought they still could.

And this is not my reason for not having a cellphone.

They do, but not via the technology I just described. Setting up a coronavirus tracker for flip phones would be a large effort, and most users have not consented.

Tracking it via smartphones could be done right now with minimal effort and most smartphone users have already consented. No legal or privacy issues involved.

I am thankful America isn’t a tyrannical state, because if she were, it would be trivial for them to use these kinds of technology to control and trap us.

[francis]

Dr. Fauci has said that American may need to be required to carry around Covid19 immunity papers.

We are ok with that?

Fortunately, Dr Fauci isn’t a lawyer, judge, the President, or in charge of civil liberties.

If there is a covid19 vaccine and a widespread anti vaccine movement then measures will have to be taken. I hope that doesn’t happen, although the anti-vaccine denialists seem very determined to spread disease.

I don't see this happening. If we're all under quarantine it's impossible to distribute them. Hospitals are overwhelmed.
(And this isn't the same as implanting chips in our brains, that's an old conspiracy theory.)

[Josh]

Dr. Fauci has said that American may need to be required to carry around Covid19 immunity papers.

We are ok with that?

Fortunately, Dr Fauci isn’t a lawyer, judge, the President, or in charge of civil liberties.

If there is a covid19 vaccine and a widespread anti vaccine movement then measures will have to be taken. I hope that doesn’t happen, although the anti-vaccine denialists seem very determined to spread disease.

I don't see this happening. If we're all under quarantine it's impossible to distribute them. Hospitals are overwhelmed.
(And this isn't the same as implanting chips in our brains, that's an old conspiracy theory.)

Why would it be impossible to distribute? Look at how the smallpox and polio vaccines were distributed.

By the way, once people have deaths in their family like the Spanish Flu or become crippled like polio, a lot of anti-vaccine attitudes will vanish. Or the people who hold them will simply die of the diseases they refuse to be cured of.

[Bootstrap]

Aren't we conflating two completely different topics? I think it is quite reasonable to be concerned about privacy and civil rights and religious rights and democracy. And the kinds of things done to keep us safe in a pandemic can threaten all of those things, we need to keep our eyes open. I think this is worth of its own thread.

But for Christians, militancy, anger, and radicalization are not the right response even to valid concerns. And of course, so many conspiracy theories are based on misinformation, not valid concerns.

[Josh]

Protestant view like Premillennialism has to be too worldly for Anabaptists. I mean, who dares to take those Scriptures literally for our day today? Is it more comfortable to write off and dismiss any thing outside our paradigm as a conspiracy or being angry, militant or radical, or how about taking some of these Scriptures literal:

Protestants are divided between eschatological beliefs. Anglicans, Quakers, Methodists, Church of Christ, and others are typically amillennial; most Reformed groups are postmillennial.

Anabaptists themselves are divided between premillennialism and amillennial beliefs, primary based on how much they were influenced by John Darby’s dispensationalism, often via Scofield Bible commentaries.

“ Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? — Luke 18:8b”

“ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. — 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18”

I’m extremely confused how you think I’m not obeying this literally. I believe in the Lord’s return. I don’t believe in a specific dispensation age for “the rapture” (a term not in the Bible), and think the above scriptures describe a mystery which isn’t easily described in earthly terms.

When God returns, will he find believers in Jesus or believers in conspiracy theories like a flat earth, anti-vaccine denialism, and hoarding of gold and silver?

[DrWojo]

I have seen a lot more conspiracies floating around. Stuff like Mennonites advising one another to never take a Covid vaccine when it comes out because it's apparently the government planting chips in people...Fear drives us to lose our reasoning and I worry about people in my community.

I do too.

My own denomination got lucky in the sense that last year our entire church had a strong leading from the Lord that conspiracy theories, anti-vaccine attitudes to the point of disobedience to vaccination laws for school, and seeking “alternative medicine” doctors who claim to heal any disease, is a spiritual problem.

Even despite that there are many rebelling against this. Such beliefs are very concerning.

If anything, the god of this world and modern day Babylon is the god of commerce, merchants, trade, all kinds of luxury goods. Those are shut down right now. And it seems many plain people are unhappy about the shutdown of commerce. Is this not what was foretold in the scripture?

Don't forget the God of Modern Medicine when you want to list the gods of modern day Babylon. And so your denomination 'got lucky' deciding to trust Secular Scientists and the Ungodly run CDC and WHO for advice regarding health of your personal bodies? Personally I tend to think y'all 'got screwed' would be a more accurate depiction. Speaking of which, please explain to me the logic of The Centers for Disease Control monitoring Abortion Statistics? Because of HealthPromotion? I suppose one could ask the same question trying to apply the same logic why they also monitor Population Control rates but that would probably earn me the label of 'Conspiracy Theorist' along with being accused of militancy, anger & radicalization.

Thomas Jefferson once said, "The Issue today is the same as it has been throughout all History. Whether man shall be allowed to govern himself or be ruled by a small elite." (Gasp, Now I'm probably also considered patriotic, or maybe a Deist? for quoting Thomas Jefferson) The point I'm trying to make is, if you personally choose to cast your lot with your churches strong 'leading from the Lord' I'll try my best to be charitable and respect that. But I beg you, don't place the same blind trust in the CDC.

[DrWojo]

Protestant view like Premillennialism has to be too worldly for Anabaptists. I mean, who dares to take those Scriptures literally for our day today? Is it more comfortable to write off and dismiss any thing outside our paradigm as a conspiracy or being angry, militant or radical, or how about taking some of these Scriptures literal:

Protestants are divided between eschatological beliefs. Anglicans, Quakers, Methodists, Church of Christ, and others are typically amillennial; most Reformed groups are postmillennial.

Anabaptists themselves are divided between premillennialism and amillennial beliefs, primary based on how much they were influenced by John Darby’s dispensationalism, often via Scofield Bible commentaries.

“ Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? — Luke 18:8b”

“ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. — 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18”

I’m extremely confused how you think I’m not obeying this literally. I believe in the Lord’s return. I don’t believe in a specific dispensation age for “the rapture” (a term not in the Bible), and think the above scriptures describe a mystery which isn’t easily described in earthly terms.

When God returns, will he find believers in Jesus or believers in conspiracy theories like a flat earth, anti-vaccine denialism, and hoarding of gold and silver?

I'm glad you believe in our Lord's return. As to what He will find at His arrival, I believe it will either be Strangers and Pilgrims who are watching, waiting and longing for His return or Earth-dwellers who have made it their practice and rule of their lives to live for themselves, like the rich men spoken of in James 5:3 that have heaped treasure together for the last days. This is in stark contrast to the brethren who are patiently waiting unto the coming of the Lord in verses 7 and 8.

If, however we are all consumed on earthly things, like those in Philippians 3:18-19 and find ourselves participating together to try to make this earth, which God placed under the control of Satan at the fall, some kind of utopia, we might possibly give in to the enemies of the cross of Christ and take part in a one-world system.

But rather I pray that we have "our conversation in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Phillippians 3:20-21).