Beards - Given Unto Man

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Sudsy
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Sudsy »

I guess if one is to view hair as something not to be altered (cut, removed), then deodorant should be considered an alteration to a God given perfume also, right ?

But then according to Romans 14, if believers do this as God honoring, then we are not to pass judgment and look down on one of God's children.
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Josh
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Josh »

Sudsy wrote:I guess if one is to view hair as something not to be altered (cut, removed), then deodorant should be considered an alteration to a God given perfume also, right ?

But then according to Romans 14, if believers do this as God honoring, then we are not to pass judgment and look down on one of God's children.
I can confirm there are certain Anabaptist groups that eschew deodorant, much to the horror of some of my visitors who received friendly hugs from such folk.
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Valerie
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I guess if one is to view hair as something not to be altered (cut, removed), then deodorant should be considered an alteration to a God given perfume also, right ?

But then according to Romans 14, if believers do this as God honoring, then we are not to pass judgment and look down on one of God's children.
I can confirm there are certain Anabaptist groups that eschew deodorant, much to the horror of some of my visitors who received friendly hugs from such folk.
I bet their dementia rates are lower!

https://www.cmsschicago.org/news-blog/d ... -dementia/

Actually we've been around the Swartzentrubers at the produce auction many times- I am sure they would fall into this category of non-deoderant as you can smell that they work hard, and that doesn't bother me in the least-
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MattY
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by MattY »

If a beard was required or encouraged by the New Testament church, it seems like we would hear about it in the New Testament - the way church fathers talked about it in later centuries. For it would have been a requirement that was necessary to communicate to Gentile believers. As the OP mentioned, "...it also seems probable that many of the Gentiles which joined themselves to the early Church were from Roman, Greek and various other cultures whose cultural fashions often promoted bare faces." Since it was not mentioned even in the minimal requirements for Gentile converts in Acts 15, the wearing of beards - or not - doesn't seem to have been an issue. As it is not, therefore, a biblical requirement, I feel like any requirement either way in this area is merely a cultural matter, and doesn't sit well with the principle of Christian liberty (see Romans 15; Colossians 2:16-23; Galatians 5, etc.).

As for the early church fathers, they were not actually going against culture when they spoke in favor of beards. We usually think of Romans as clean-shaven, because Romans of the late Republic and early Empire were usually clean-shaven. But in the 2nd century, the culture changed. And so, you get the early church fathers calling for men to have beards.
In the second century AD the Emperor Hadrian, according to Dion Cassius, was the first of all the Caesars to grow a beard; Plutarch says that he did it to hide scars on his face. This was a period in Rome of widespread imitation of Greek culture, and many other men grew beards in imitation of Hadrian and the Greek fashion. Until the time of Constantine the Great the emperors appear in busts and coins with beards; but Constantine and his successors until the reign of Phocas, with the exception of Julian the Apostate, are represented as beardless.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beard#Rome
Valerie wrote:
Josh wrote:Some more strict Amish groups or just ones less culturally assimilated don't engage in hair removal for women. Legs, armpits. Nobody in the community cares. Hairy legs are normal. And if a woman grows a bit of facial hair, that's normal too (a little bit of hair on the upper lip is not that rare even for young women - something like 20% of American women wax it or remove it, last I heard).

When the whole culture is committed to not requiring hair removal, it's not a restriction as much as it is a freedom. In mainstream American culture, women are pretty much required to wax their upper lip or face social consequences. The Amish are free from that.
Josh, the woman has a full on, beard- I mean like an Amish man, but shorter-
Wow, poor lady. :(
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Valerie
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Valerie »

buckeyematt2 wrote:If a beard was required or encouraged by the New Testament church, it seems like we would hear about it in the New Testament - the way church fathers talked about it in later centuries. For it would have been a requirement that was necessary to communicate to Gentile believers. As the OP mentioned, "...it also seems probable that many of the Gentiles which joined themselves to the early Church were from Roman, Greek and various other cultures whose cultural fashions often promoted bare faces." Since it was not mentioned even in the minimal requirements for Gentile converts in Acts 15, the wearing of beards - or not - doesn't seem to have been an issue. As it is not, therefore, a biblical requirement, I feel like any requirement either way in this area is merely a cultural matter, and doesn't sit well with the principle of Christian liberty (see Romans 15; Colossians 2:16-23; Galatians 5, etc.).
A couple of things- the New Testament was not an exact manuel for everything the Apostles orally started the Churches with- the Church was started orally- the only reason we even know about the headcovering for women, was because Apostle Paul was needing to bring correction into the Corinthian Church by way of his 'epistle'.
There were traditions taught orally that the Apostles didn't write down, for the New Testament- perhaps not everyone trusts this, but it is true- You have to realize and keep in mind, the New Testament Church had been established and growing, churches started in every city way before the Apostles wrote the gospels and epistles-
So there were oral and written traditions:
2 Thessalonians 2:15King James Version (KJV)

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

At that time, the New Testament wasn't the source for starting Churches- and Apostolic teachings/doctrine- so they well may have encouraged beards, just because they didn't see the need to include that in New Testament doesn't make it not so- I don't know- as you say, the early fathers probably re-emphasized what was already taught- the Church- with Jesus Christ as Head, was where truth was to be found:
1 Timothy 3:15King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The Gospels didn't mention beards, but you have to figure- Jesus started the Church with Jewish men, who would have not written down either, that beards were no longer required.-
I don't know for sure but I do consider that the early writers encouraged it because it was originally taught to men of faith, orally. And there was no need to include that in an epistle to correct it, like there was with the headcovering.
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Valerie
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Valerie »

buckeyematt2 wrote:
Wow, poor lady. :(
Agreed. I feel sorry for her- she should be allowed to 'appear' as a female in face- granted many people have deformities and we don't criticize that at all, and we don't feel anything critical towards a woman with a beard like that, but I am sure she would love it removed- and to me this is where the spirit of the law collides with the letter of the law- she, I'm sure simply wants to look like the woman God made her, even if her hormones caused this late in life for her. I would think the husband would also appreciate her being free to look female again.
Is this vanity to think this way?
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Sudsy
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Sudsy »

To me, wearing beards or not wearing beards falls into the Mathew 23:23-24 text where the focus is on matters that have little weight. Weightier matters listed were justice, mercy and faith.

[bible]1 samuel 16,7 [/bible]
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Neto
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Neto »

Why Don’t Chassidic Men Shave Their Beards?
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... nt=content
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Heirbyadoption »

queserasera_2 wrote:Amen, Gene! Beards are yucky. Sorry, heir. ;)
Que, I confess to finding a bit of humor in this statement. At least you didn't promise to eat your shoe if the situation ever changed. 8-)
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Wade
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Re: Beards - Given Unto Man

Post by Wade »

Robert wrote:I have been asked to use something that covers my face more, not because of disease, but because of ugliness.
Hey Robert, maybe beards were given unto men for us ugly people...?
True story: I recently shaved for the first time in over 6 years for work related/safety issues and had an older Portuguese Catholic man I get along with really well stop in his tracks when he saw me. He said, "What happened to your face?" As I tried to explain he cut in and said, "It's okay, it'll grow back..." as he put his head down and walked away... :oops: :lol:
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