Charity Ministries and assorted other topics

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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mike
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by mike »

MaxPC wrote:
mike wrote: Charity was a product of the times.
Just wondering:
Do you think it has evolved enough to survive by learning from its mistakes? I've seen churches who do manage that.
There's no such thing as "it" anymore if you're talking about the movement. If you're talking about Charity Christian Fellowship, I have no idea. The formerly affiliated churches may or may not be working through the mistakes of the past. I haven't been there for over ten years now, so all I know is from outside looking in. There are congregations that are transitioning into what appears to be conservative evangelical or holiness churches. Others seem to be affiliating more closely with conservative Mennonites, whom at one time they might have considered unspiritual or legalistic. I suspect that there is some degree of identity crisis.
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Dan Z
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by Dan Z »

I can think of another thing that contributed to Charity's instability - the "seeker" nature of the movement.

Charity tended to draw in "seeker people" (from both old-order/conservative Anabaptism and as well as radical homeschool types from outside of Anabaptism) who were generally strongly independent-minded idealists, discontent with their current faith context. This worked great at first, as people with much zeal for their faith and ideals gathered around a strong leader (Denny) in an idealistic movement. It was truly electric in its day! But, in the long run, this makeup of people contributed to the difficulty Charity had in keeping everyone going the same direction, for a number of reasons:
  • 1) Seekers are mobile by nature, not prone to appreciating the status quo, nor staying content in the same place for very long.
    2) The folks Charity drew were mainly independent idealists, each with strong convictions about their own ideas, and not prone to compromise or conformity.
    3) Charity also drew in and taught an authoritarian approach to faith and family - with all of those little "Kings" having difficulty cooperating under a higher authority.
    4) Authoritarianism tends to keep peace and harmony in the short-run (and can even produce something that looks very much like a Godly family), but research shows that in the long run, when children of authoritarians grow up and assert their own independence, a higher percentage of them will leave their father's faith.
Sorry to get all sociological here...but having lived in the Charity context for a while, I've had a lot of time to think about what worked and what didn't.

I know there are a lot of remnants of the Remnant Churches remaining, and I honestly hope some of the good seeds from the movement are growing to maturity...and that there is still a yield of good fruit yet to be realized.
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MaxPC
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by MaxPC »

Thank you, Dan and Mike. Your perspectives help in understanding the situation. I truly pray good things for these people. The Lord can always use more "good and faithful servants".

Dan, sociological is okay by me :D I daresay you're right about your #4 re children of authoritarians at least in the short term. Yet the Bible tells us also that in their old age they won't depart from it (Prov. 22:6). There are times I still catch myself sounding like my father. :lol:

It will be interesting to talk to those same "Charity Children" when they turn 50 and have a chance to emerge from their period of rebellion.

We have a number of adults in Catholic World who are speakers at conferences who share about their rebellion from their strict Catholic upbringing, even to the degree of becoming evangelical pastors. When they entered their thirties and forties they had a change of heart and returned to their Catholic faith. They laughingly call themselves "reverts".

Perhaps God will raise up some of these children to do outstanding work for Christ? It will be very interesting for you to watch. I'm too old now to see the new generation of this movement but many of you might be able to see "Charity Ministries 2.0".
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Dan Z
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by Dan Z »

MaxPC wrote:Thank you, Dan and Mike. Your perspectives help in understanding the situation. I truly pray good things for these people. The Lord can always use more "good and faithful servants".

Dan, sociological is okay by me :D I daresay you're right about your #4 re children of authoritarians at least in the short term. Yet the Bible tells us also that in their old age they won't depart from it (Prov. 22:6). There are times I still catch myself sounding like my father. :lol:

It will be interesting to talk to those same "Charity Children" when they turn 50 and have a chance to emerge from their period of rebellion.

We have a number of adults in Catholic World who are speakers at conferences who share about their rebellion from their strict Catholic upbringing, even to the degree of becoming evangelical pastors. When they entered their thirties and forties they had a change of heart and returned to their Catholic faith. They laughingly call themselves "reverts".

Perhaps God will raise up some of these children to do outstanding work for Christ? It will be very interesting for you to watch. I'm too old now to see the new generation of this movement but many of you might be able to see "Charity Ministries 2.0".
Amen Max...what sociology can't account for is the movement of the Spirit...
  • When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
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Josh
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by Josh »

MaxPC wrote:It will be interesting to talk to those same "Charity Children" when they turn 50 and have a chance to emerge from their period of rebellion.
I don't think it's fair to say that "Charity Children" are somehow in a state of rebellion and just need to get over it and go back to what they were taught when they were young.

For example, I know a girl who grew up being taught the strict Charity ways. Nowadays she doesn't think she needs to stick to only wearing a solid, polyester white veil, but is OK with using one of a different fabric and a slightly different style. I don't think she has a rebellious spirit.
We have a number of adults in Catholic World who are speakers at conferences who share about their rebellion from their strict Catholic upbringing, even to the degree of becoming evangelical pastors. When they entered their thirties and forties they had a change of heart and returned to their Catholic faith. They laughingly call themselves "reverts".
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Catholicism has been established for a long time. Charity didn't start until the 1980s. There's not really anything to "revert" to. The old Charity establishment is long gone - where I live, the original Charity churches have all changed into something very different than the old ones. I would not be able to find any Charity church where all the women wear solid white veils, for example.
Perhaps God will raise up some of these children to do outstanding work for Christ? It will be very interesting for you to watch. I'm too old now to see the new generation of this movement but many of you might be able to see "Charity Ministries 2.0".
Some of the children of this movement are already doing excellent work for Christ. The ones that I know are doing so in non-Charity fellowships, like Keystone Mennonite Conference or Conservative Mennonite Conference, most likely because those conferences have more organised opportunities to do stuff.
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MaxPC
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by MaxPC »

Dan Z wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Thank you, Dan and Mike. Your perspectives help in understanding the situation. I truly pray good things for these people. The Lord can always use more "good and faithful servants".

Dan, sociological is okay by me :D I daresay you're right about your #4 re children of authoritarians at least in the short term. Yet the Bible tells us also that in their old age they won't depart from it (Prov. 22:6). There are times I still catch myself sounding like my father. :lol:

It will be interesting to talk to those same "Charity Children" when they turn 50 and have a chance to emerge from their period of rebellion.

We have a number of adults in Catholic World who are speakers at conferences who share about their rebellion from their strict Catholic upbringing, even to the degree of becoming evangelical pastors. When they entered their thirties and forties they had a change of heart and returned to their Catholic faith. They laughingly call themselves "reverts".

Perhaps God will raise up some of these children to do outstanding work for Christ? It will be very interesting for you to watch. I'm too old now to see the new generation of this movement but many of you might be able to see "Charity Ministries 2.0".
Amen Max...what sociology can't account for is the movement of the Spirit...
  • When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
    Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
:up: :clap:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Dan Z
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by Dan Z »

Good catch Josh.

First, I really wasn't wanting to paint anyone in "rebellion" so much as to point out that, in general, research shows that a higher percentage of children of authoritarian parents do not follow their parents faith when they reach an age of independence (relative to more "balanced" parenting styles).

Second, as I reread my post, I hope it is apparent that I was pointing out generalizations about the movement as it existed when we were connected to it - that it drew in independent-minded seekers, that it had an authoritarian bent, etc. I think most who were involved in those days would concur. Of course, like with any generalization, it is important to recognize that not everyone who was a part of Charity fit into this mold.

I wonder if jazman would like to weigh in on this topic.
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Josh
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by Josh »

Dan Z wrote:Good catch Josh.

First, I really wasn't wanting to paint anyone in "rebellion" so much as to point out that, in general, research shows that a higher percentage of children of authoritarian parents do not follow their parents faith when they reach an age of independence (relative to more "balanced" parenting styles).
Right - I remember that quadrant taught at SMBI that showed how most children who grew up Christian and stay Christian were in a home that combined both discipline and love. Just love, just discipline, or neither tends to result in very "rebellious" children.
Second, as I reread my post, I hope it is apparent that I was pointing out generalizations about the movement as it existed when we were connected to it - that it drew in independent-minded seekers, that it had an authoritarian bent, etc. I think most who were involved in those days would concur. Of course, like with any generalization, it is important to recognize that not everyone who was a part of Charity fit into this mold.
Yes, I would agree Charity attracted people like that. Nowadays, I don't think the average Charity-type church is like that too much. When I think of one in particular I think it has actually done a very good job of helping minister to men to encourage them to let go of that authoritarianism.

When I think of some of the people who were authoritarian and active in Charity in the 1990s and 2000s, I realise some of them aren't in any church at all now, or others are in a very tiny, independent church.
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quietpilgrim
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by quietpilgrim »

mike wrote:There's no such thing as "it" anymore if you're talking about the movement.

mike wrote:I suspect that there is some degree of identity crisis.
This. There is no longer a movement precisely because there is an identity crisis.

Proverbs 29:18: Where there is no vision, the people perish.

QP
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Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου, διαφορὰ δὲ πολλὴ μεταξὺ τῶν δύο ὁδῶν. (Διδαχή των Δώδεκα Αποστόλων)
quietpilgrim
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Re: Charity Ministries

Post by quietpilgrim »

Dan Z wrote:...Charity tended to draw in "seeker people" (from both old-order/conservative Anabaptism and as well as radical homeschool types from outside of Anabaptism) who were generally strongly independent-minded idealists, discontent with their current faith context. This worked great at first, as people with much zeal for their faith and ideals gathered around a strong leader (Denny) in an idealistic movement. It was truly electric in its day! But, in the long run, this makeup of people contributed to the difficulty Charity had in keeping everyone going the same direction...
I appreciated this post, Dan.

This is what I was alluding to in my post yesterday when I talked about friction. Though many probably didn't realize it at the time, being a part of the Charity movement was only one of multiple stops on their journey and not the final destination.

Most of us have heard stories of Old Order and Conservative folks who at one time aligned themselves with the Charity movement and now attend evangelical churches or even no church at all. Perhaps less talked about are those whose first taste of the Anabaptist movement was through Charity and are now find themselves in Conservative or Old Order groups.

Perhaps what I am about to state is an over-simplification of a multi-faceted problem, but the Charity movement simply became a meeting point on the journey of individuals who were traveling two different directions.

QP
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Ὁδοὶ δύο εἰσί, μία τῆς ζωῆς καὶ μία τοῦ θανάτου, διαφορὰ δὲ πολλὴ μεταξὺ τῶν δύο ὁδῶν. (Διδαχή των Δώδεκα Αποστόλων)
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