ken_sylvania wrote:I'm not sure exactly when he was converted either, but I would suggest it may have been either when he met Jesus on the shore of Lake Gennesaret after Jesus' resurrection or when he received the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus statement at the last supper (I have prayed for thee ... when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.), Peter's was not yet converted at that time, even though he knew and believed that Jesus was the Messiah.
How biblical is the concept of conversion at an exact moment in time?
The New Testament talks a lot about walking in the light, following Jesus, picking up your cross, etc., but talks very little about the need to be converted and that there is pre-conversion and post-conversion. Instead, being a "convert" seems to be an ongoing thing.
Josh wrote:
How biblical is the concept of conversion at an exact moment in time?
The New Testament talks a lot about walking in the light, following Jesus, picking up your cross, etc., but talks very little about the need to be converted and that there is pre-conversion and post-conversion. Instead, being a "convert" seems to be an ongoing thing.
I think the old-order concept of conversion as more of a gradual thing which consists of becoming more like Christ in our thoughts and actions is valid. "Crisis Conversions" are more of a Protestant innovation.
ken_sylvania wrote:I'm not sure exactly when he was converted either, but I would suggest it may have been either when he met Jesus on the shore of Lake Gennesaret after Jesus' resurrection or when he received the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus statement at the last supper (I have prayed for thee ... when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.), Peter's was not yet converted at that time, even though he knew and believed that Jesus was the Messiah.
How biblical is the concept of conversion at an exact moment in time?
The New Testament talks a lot about walking in the light, following Jesus, picking up your cross, etc., but talks very little about the need to be converted and that there is pre-conversion and post-conversion. Instead, being a "convert" seems to be an ongoing thing.
If a crisis conversion is not actually a biblical concept, it's going to be very difficult to figure out exactly when Peter was converted.
I would argue that he was born a Jew, grew up following God's Law as ordained for the Israelites, and then he also started following Jesus, and was part of the transition from solely following the old law to becoming Jesus-followers.
For some reason I keep thinking of "..when they persecute you in one city, flee to the next..." I also think of Dirk fleeing his captures. I know these accounts are not directly addressing personal attacks in they way the NRA has been teaching Americans to fear, but I do think fleeing is a proven and safe course of action and much preferred over defending oneself.
RZehr wrote:For some reason I keep thinking of "..when they persecute you in one city, flee to the next..." I also think of Dirk fleeing his captures. I know these accounts are not directly addressing personal attacks in they way the NRA has been teaching Americans to fear, but I do think fleeing is a proven and safe course of action and much preferred over defending oneself.
I agree. I think we who are non-resistant need to think this stuff through ahead of time, and have at our disposal a variety of ways of responding to threat or attack that do not violate our commitment to nonresistance - fleeing, random kindness, a gentle answer, self-sacrifice, etc.
ken_sylvania wrote: I'm not sure exactly when he was converted either, but I would suggest it may have been either when he met Jesus on the shore of Lake Gennesaret after Jesus' resurrection or when he received the Holy Spirit. According to Jesus statement at the last supper (I have prayed for thee ... when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.), Peter's was not yet converted at that time, even though he knew and believed that Jesus was the Messiah.
Thanks. I know think I understand where you are coming from.
I don't think I've read that verse in the KJV. Most translations are more like this:[bible]Luke 22,32[/bible] After we have doubts or a faith crisis we may turn back to God. I don't see that in the same light as a "conversion" in the way Christians usually use the word, but am thinking over the questioning of that concept in the above few posts.
Last night I visited with a young man who is at #6 but would like to be at #3 or #4.
His hang up is the thing of watching an innocent person suffer but not do anything physical to help.
It struck me that we have such a situation in the NT. Peter saw an innocent man about to suffer and came to his aid. Jesus ordered him to put away his sword because his Kingdom was not of this world.
Would Jesus have ordered the same thing if Peter had attempted to protect an innocent child? I don't know that we can know for sure.
It does seem like there is no end to debate if we look at individual situations.
Non resistance only makes sense to me if I look at the big picture.
For example:
How many innocent people are killed in wars? How many innocent people are killed in communities that resort to lethal self defense? What if Christians in both settings would have returned good for evil. Would less people have been killed throughout history?
Sometimes people need to lay down their lives so that others including future generations can see the futility of harming others.
Thousands of Anabaptists died for their faith, not knowing that they were laying the ground work for hundreds of years of peaceful separation of church and state.
Following Jesus and putting away the sword has long-term results that cannot be measured in the immediate.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
If we believe God is just, will ultimately judge the quick and the dead, and that he offers resurrection to life to any who believe in him and call on his name, then an innocent person being slain or hurt by a wicked person is something we can accept.
If we think this world is all there is, we are driven to try to control it and "fix it". Of course, that just results in a lot more violence.
I think we often don't really think about God's wrath and what the consequences for sin really are. God sees every act of injustice, and wrath is stored up for sinners.
At the same time, for every person who is hurt and broken due to injustice done to them - Jesus offers salvation and a changed life. And he set the example of how to be wronged, hurt, and even killed. Our hope is in resurrection to life.