Mennonite Church of God in Christ

[lesterb]

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That many?

I don't think MN supports scientific notation...

Actually, I wanted to delete my post but it wouldn't let me. It did, however, allow me to edit it. So I just wiped out the text and tried to save a blank post. But that isn't possible either. Nothing more legalistic in life than a computer. Never allows an exception for anything.

So I entered some text.

[Josh]

So, Josh, what you are saying is that to be baptized you have to join a denomination and that is the only thing that makes it legitimate?

No, I am saying that baptism should be something you do when join a local, face-to-face body of believers, and is part of a demonstration of your commitment to being part of them, and their baptising you should symbolise their commitment to being a part of your life.

I doubt that Philip said that to the Ethiopian eunuch. We are baptized into the Body of Christ, which is not limited to any local congregation, and therefore is "invisible" in the sense that it doesn't fit into one building.
Scripture says that we are baptized into Christ [himself], which doesn't preclude some local congregation.

Rom_6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Gal_3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

We weren't baptized into the church's death were we? We haven't put on the congregation have we? (Sometimes I think we are put upon by a congregation.
The modern Mennonite concept of baptism reflecting joining the local congregation is foreign to scripture as much as the unfortunate concept of making ourselves worthy to take communion is.

The Body of Christ is not limited to any local congregation.

Of course it's not, but the body of Christ wouldn't exist without local congregations. I maintain that one doesn't really experience Christ until one gets to be around his people, and what we call gatherings of Christian people is "a local church".

[KingdomBuilder]

as much as the unfortunate concept of making ourselves worthy to take communion is.

What do you mean here?

For what it's worth, I agree with your last post.

[lesterb]

I don't understand what you're saying here

Well, the picture in scripture is that people were baptised when they joined the local church they were part of, which is still how conservative Anabaptists generally do this, and how all Old Order type of people do it. (I don't know if any Old Order people accept converts without baptism, but I doubt it.)

A more recent concept is that there is an "invisible church" of true, regenerate believers residing both inside and outside of the "visible church" gathered in congregations. The approach to baptism that Reformed & Baptist theology takes and those derived from that is that baptism baptises you into this invisible, global church, and thus never needs to be repeated again as long as you sincerely believed in Christianity when you were baptised.

I think that can be an acceptable set of traditions but I don't think by any means it's the only valid set of traditions. A great weakness I see in this viewpoint is that since joining a church has nothing to do with becoming a Christian or baptism, a focus ends up on making sure the baptism itself is right.

How much water? How cold? How deep in the water?

What direction do you go into the water? Forward? Backward? Both?

How many times in the water? Once? Thrice? Four times?

In what name or names are you baptised?

I think those are unimportant details. I think the significant part of baptism is that it's symbolic of starting the Christian life, which in my opinion needs to be something that happens with other Christian believers, with grace, of course, for those who don't have any Christian believers nearby them to commune with.

So, Josh, what you are saying is that to be baptized you have to join a denomination and that is the only thing that makes it legitimate?
I doubt that Philip said that to the Ethiopian eunuch. We are baptized into the Body of Christ, which is not limited to any local congregation, and therefore is "invisible" in the sense that it doesn't fit into one building.
Scripture says that we are baptized into Christ [himself], which doesn't preclude some local congregation.

Rom_6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Gal_3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

We weren't baptized into the church's death were we? We haven't put on the congregation have we? (Sometimes I think we are put upon by a congregation.
The modern Mennonite concept of baptism reflecting joining the local congregation is foreign to scripture as much as the unfortunate concept of making ourselves worthy to take communion is.

The Body of Christ is not limited to any local congregation.

There is a reason that we call the book of Acts a time of transition. The eunuch went home and started a church in Ethiopia. And probably baptized other people into it. The whole thing had to get started somehow, and God used some very creative ways.

But the Bible does seem to make it fairly clear that being a part of a local body of believers and submitting to it is part of serving God. There are time that this isn't possible and God understands that. But if we are just to individualistic to fit anywhere, then I wonder how God is going to look at it?

[KingdomBuilder]

But the Bible does seem to make it fairly clear that being a part of a local body of believers and submitting to it is part of serving God. There are time that this isn't possible and God understands that. But if we are just to individualistic to fit anywhere, then I wonder how God is going to look at it?

How would you relate this to the current issue at hand regarding the CGCM and re-baptizing? What're your views regarding?

[Josh]

as much as the unfortunate concept of making ourselves worthy to take communion is.

What do you mean here?

For what it's worth, I agree with your last post.

In conservative Mennonite circles, communion is a big deal. You try to clear out any unconfessed sin in your life before communion, try to reconcile with anyone you need to do so with, and also approach a brother you think is living in sin but you've been putting off doing that. (The latter is not so much anymore.)

It happens twice a year, takes a few weeks of prep, and is a lot of work for the ministers.

[gcdonner]

as much as the unfortunate concept of making ourselves worthy to take communion is.

What do you mean here?

For what it's worth, I agree with your last post.

Based on a faulty reading of I Cor 11:27,

1Co 11:27  Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 

Most Amish congregations and more than a few Mennonite congregations have the elders examine everyone before communion is taken each year (once a year usually) to see if they are worthy of taking communion. It becomes the litmus test of whether or not you are doing what is expected.

However, this understanding is in error since the passage says nothing about being examined by others #1 and secondly, when the KJV uses the term "unworthily" it is not referring to the personal worthiness of the individual, but rather the term means "in a common manner", that is to say, we are not to take it lightly, like we were eating a peanut and butter sandwich.
Please note that the passage continues by saying:

1Co 11:28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

 

We are expected to examine ourselves before God and this in fact provides an opportunity for receiving forgiveness and healing, which is part of the purpose of Jesus' shedding his precious blood. By preventing people from taking communion, they are effectively keeping the individual in sin and without fellowship of the saints. It does become a means of ostracizing folks, without taking the next step of excommunicating them.

Communion isn't about measuring up, but rather is a reminder and an opportunity to find forgiveness and healing (see verses 30-32). It is an opportunity for full restoration, not an reason to shun.

This is one reason why I believe that we should partake of communion more than once or twice a year. I appreciate that the church I attend, gives communion once a month. For me it is a very special time and one of intimate "communion" with our Saviour and in the company of my brothers and sisters in Christ.

I am not castigating the Amish and Mennonites, but am sad that this tradition of man has robbed many of them of a real blessing in Christ.

[gcdonner]

There is a reason that we call the book of Acts a time of transition. The eunuch went home and started a church in Ethiopia. And probably baptized other people into it. The whole thing had to get started somehow, and God used some very creative ways.

But the Bible does seem to make it fairly clear that being a part of a local body of believers and submitting to it is part of serving God. There are time that this isn't possible and God understands that. But if we are just to individualistic to fit anywhere, then I wonder how God is going to look at it?

I understand what you are saying, lester, and agree in principle, but the point I am making is that baptism is not, biblically speaking, an entrance into any particular denomination, the way that it has become viewed. We should be understanding that we are being baptized into Christ himself, first and foremost and that it doesn't necessarily require signing on the dotted line to a particular set of ideologies. I would rather immerse a new believer and help them find a fitting congregation, than to insist that they agree to a set of doctrines before I would allow him to be baptized. The only theology they need to start are some of the basics that we have talked about on the other thread on Basic Christian doctrines.
This exclusivity is divisive at the least, and downright sinful at it's worst. Our traditional religiosity can create some pretty high walls that are hard to climb over. I think Jesus said something to the Pharisees about this kind of thing...

How often do we rethink our practices in the light of scripture, to determine if they aren't just done as a result of traditions that are out of date. You have said, lester, that the book of Acts is transitional, so there are things in there that we shouldn't expect to be repeated. Consider then the contexts in which some of our present traditions were made and see if in fact they are possibly on sinking sand rather than on the rock... Something to think about.

BTW, I am in full communion with a local congregation, though I am not a "member" per se.

[gcdonner]

as much as the unfortunate concept of making ourselves worthy to take communion is.

What do you mean here?

For what it's worth, I agree with your last post.

In conservative Mennonite circles, communion is a big deal. You try to clear out any unconfessed sin in your life before communion, try to reconcile with anyone you need to do so with, and also approach a brother you think is living in sin but you've been putting off doing that. (The latter is not so much anymore.)

It happens twice a year, takes a few weeks of prep, and is a lot of work for the ministers.

What does it have to do with the ministers? It isn't their job to whip the congregation into shape, it is the job of the Holy Spirit and for the individual to work out, unless it is known, unrepentant sin that is affecting the whole congregation, which in that case shouldn't be waiting until the time for communion. Perhaps if communion were taken more often, accounts would be kept shorter and confession up to date and not let go for 6 months???
Think about it.

[Wade]

But the Bible does seem to make it fairly clear that being a part of a local body of believers and submitting to it is part of serving God. There are time that this isn't possible and God understands that. But if we are just to individualistic to fit anywhere, then I wonder how God is going to look at it?

It would be a great joy if people raised in church settings would not say these things until churches had been planted enough places that people could make that choice of joining a local body...
There are billions of lost people all over the world that don't have a local congregation to join but yet the bible tells them to submit to the local body if they find Christ??? This is completely unreasonable for the majority.
It sounds like ideas from people that have had it easy rather than people who grew up in dysfunctional homes - the majority of the world - the lost...
What happened to the scattered sheep or the fields being ready to harvest?
Should not we be doing our part of planting churches first and then telling people to join after?

I do agree with you Lester but when people keep telling you to do something you cannot do because of unavailability, or because church standards that cannot be followed without choice of even being able to follow them, or if a spouse won't do some of things required for either to join should we advocate divorce so one can move and join?(When both are Christians); it is like each time asking and hoping for help but instead rather just getting salt poured into wounds...