Forgiveness

[QuietObserver]

My other concern is that Anabaptist people who commit sexual or financial crimes tend to get much more lenient sentences than non-Mennonites. And there are “worldly” people who see this, and resent this.

One factor is that their victims usually don’t press charges, which I understand. But what bothers me is when Anabaptists use their faith as leverage to get a lenient sentence. Which is how I see the church’s letters to the judge in the JMast case.

[Ernie]

For the record, I would not recommend him remaining free in the community.
In fact I would not want him to be free in the community for the remainder of his days on this earth even if the civil government was ok with it.
I think this is a different question though than wanting to see justice served.

I think this is what people need to hear from the CA community. And places all the context of asking for forgiveness in a different light.

If this is what it takes to help folks on MN who are struggling with this matter to feel better about this topic, I'll try to stick to this kind of comments in the future and not share my thoughts about forgiveness, mercy, and grace in the NT. So far my posts seem to be generating more heat than light.
I do think that CA's should be much more diligent, perceptive, and wise as it relates to sexual sin. Even my own church is not as committed to thoroughness in these matters as what I would like to see it be.

I'll probably also stop posting verified information. There is no way that I can at this point post verified information that will cover all the questions that people have. Sharing my thoughts about forgiveness and justice in the NT, as well as posting a bit of verified information, without being able to answer everybody's questions, does seem to put me in the camp of being on the side of covering and minimizing Jeriah's sin. I don't want to be projecting that image as it only adds more fuel to the fire. I don't want to spend my time debating these matters. I would rather put my time into prevention.

I want to be known for the statement above, especially among those who feel like the people around Jeriah are minimizing his sin.

[temporal1]

For the record, I would not recommend him remaining free in the community.
In fact I would not want him to be free in the community for the remainder of his days on this earth even if the civil government was ok with it.
I think this is a different question though than wanting to see justice served.

I think this is what people need to hear from the CA community. And places all the context of asking for forgiveness in a different light.

If this is what it takes to help folks on MN who are struggling with this matter to feel better about this topic, I'll try to stick to this kind of comments in the future and not share my thoughts about forgiveness, mercy, and grace in the NT. So far my posts seem to be generating more heat than light.
I do think that CA's should be much more diligent, perceptive, and wise as it relates to sexual sin. Even my own church is not as committed to thoroughness in these matters as what I would like to see it be.

I'll probably also stop posting verified information. There is no way that I can at this point post verified information that will cover all the questions that people have.

Sharing my thoughts about forgiveness and justice in the NT, as well as posting a bit of verified information, without being able to answer everybody's questions, does seem to put me in the camp of being on the side of covering and minimizing Jeriah's sin. I don't want to be projecting that image as it only adds more fuel to the fire. I don't want to spend my time debating these matters. I would rather put my time into prevention.

I want to be known for the statement above, especially among those who feel like the people around Jeriah are minimizing his sin.

Ernie, you have important input that should not be limited, compromised, or muffled.
This should not be confused, this is yet another reflection of how the innocent pay the price of sin.

i’m sure some of the questions you’ve addressed are personally very painful, i have admired your honest, sincere, fair response. you have not attempted to “beat around the bush,” or dodge questions.

it is time consuming, i don’t believe it’s wasted time, altho, certainly, not allowing it to take too much time is important, too.

regarding “heat and light,” for some, heat is there, understandably-so, but, again, it should not be forgotten, sin is the cause, not those attempting to mitigate damages, esp not in Jesus’ name, as i’m convinced, is your central motivation in all matters. (i have the advantage of reading your posts for several years.)

“don’t kill the messenger!” is a very old quote.

i’m not sure what is best, or what is possible.
i hope you continue to do what you are called to do, without restraint.

likewise, i’m not expecting others to restrain their honest questions, either. true progress cannot be made without honesty. honesty can have some rough edges.

on a public forum, it takes time for folks to get to know each other, it does in real life, too!
it’s never instant.

[Wade]

I think this is what people need to hear from the CA community. And places all the context of asking for forgiveness in a different light.

If this is what it takes to help folks on MN who are struggling with this matter to feel better about this topic, I'll try to stick to this kind of comments in the future and not share my thoughts about forgiveness, mercy, and grace in the NT. So far my posts seem to be generating more heat than light.
I do think that CA's should be much more diligent, perceptive, and wise as it relates to sexual sin. Even my own church is not as committed to thoroughness in these matters as what I would like to see it be.

I'll probably also stop posting verified information. There is no way that I can at this point post verified information that will cover all the questions that people have.

Sharing my thoughts about forgiveness and justice in the NT, as well as posting a bit of verified information, without being able to answer everybody's questions, does seem to put me in the camp of being on the side of covering and minimizing Jeriah's sin. I don't want to be projecting that image as it only adds more fuel to the fire. I don't want to spend my time debating these matters. I would rather put my time into prevention.

I want to be known for the statement above, especially among those who feel like the people around Jeriah are minimizing his sin.

Ernie, you have important input that should not be limited, compromised, or muffled.
This should not be confused, this is yet another reflection of how the innocent pay the price of sin.

i’m sure some of the questions you’ve addressed are personally very painful, i have admired your honest, sincere, fair response. you have not attempted to “beat around the bush,” or dodge questions.

it is time consuming, i don’t believe it’s wasted time, altho, certainly, not allowing it to take too much time is important, too.

regarding “heat and light,” for some, heat is there, understandably-so, but, again, it should not be forgotten, sin is the cause, not those attempting to mitigate damages, esp not in Jesus’ name, as i’m convinced, is your central motivation in all matters. (i have the advantage of reading your posts for several years.)

“don’t kill the messenger!” is a very old quote.

i’m not sure what is best, or what is possible.
i hope you continue to do what you are called to do, without restraint.

likewise, i’m not expecting others to restrain their honest questions, either. true progress cannot be made without honesty. honesty can have some rough edges.

on a public forum, it takes time for folks to get to know each other, it does in real life, too!
it’s never instant.

I may not know Ernie personally or even as well as many of you. But I would say I have followed a bunch of his sermons and other things outside of MN for as long as I seen Ernie posting. Many places I find encouragement - there he is... Surprise! Both of the leaders moving here have fathers who have work(ed) closely alongside Ernie - with God their are no accidents.
To be blunt nobody else in my life as a Christian has God pointed to and allowed to have as much influence into my life as probably Ernie. Hopefully that is a compliment...

Ernie, please don't stop because of me! I'd rather be quiet than for you to feel like you need to be silent.

[temporal1]

Wade:
I may not know Ernie personally or even as well as many of you. But I would say I have followed a bunch of his sermons and other things outside of MN for as long as I seen Ernie posting. Many places I find encouragement - there he is... Surprise! Both of the leaders moving here have fathers who have work(ed) closely alongside Ernie - with God their are no accidents.
To be blunt nobody else in my life as a Christian has God pointed to and allowed to have as much influence into my life as probably Ernie. Hopefully that is a compliment...

Ernie, please don't stop because of me! I'd rather be quiet than for you to feel like you need to be silent.

i do not doubt one word of this. i see it in your posts.
communication can be awkward, esp when we’re trying to work on the hard stuff.
i just know, in my own life, my beloved children have not always been easy on me!
i try to be like Ernie, to be real, and honest, to not overreact when i’m deeply hurt.
it’s not easy.

but, i have always believed i have to try, ‘cause, otherwise, they will shut me out and go elsewhere with their questions and problems. i don’t want that. so, i do my best to hold up.

now i have a young grdaughter in public school. the things she tells me! i’d rather she did not know! i try not to reveal how painful it can be. she is so innocent. so trusting. i do not understand why the world wants to push so much on children. like Ernie, i try to respond with Jesus’ heart.

i pray for courage and wisdom as i advise her to the best of my ability. and, praise God she willingly comes to me! it’s an honor to be trusted, and a responsibility. life is such a strange experience. not an easy experience.

i’m sharing this knowing you have young children. brace yourself! you will be tested.

[Aurien]

If this is what it takes to help folks on MN who are struggling with this matter to feel better about this topic, I'll try to stick to this kind of comments in the future and not share my thoughts about forgiveness, mercy, and grace in the NT. So far my posts seem to be generating more heat than light.
I do think that CA's should be much more diligent, perceptive, and wise as it relates to sexual sin. Even my own church is not as committed to thoroughness in these matters as what I would like to see it be.

I'll probably also stop posting verified information. There is no way that I can at this point post verified information that will cover all the questions that people have.

Sharing my thoughts about forgiveness and justice in the NT, as well as posting a bit of verified information, without being able to answer everybody's questions, does seem to put me in the camp of being on the side of covering and minimizing Jeriah's sin. I don't want to be projecting that image as it only adds more fuel to the fire. I don't want to spend my time debating these matters. I would rather put my time into prevention.

I want to be known for the statement above, especially among those who feel like the people around Jeriah are minimizing his sin.

Ernie, you have important input that should not be limited, compromised, or muffled.
This should not be confused, this is yet another reflection of how the innocent pay the price of sin.

i’m sure some of the questions you’ve addressed are personally very painful, i have admired your honest, sincere, fair response. you have not attempted to “beat around the bush,” or dodge questions.

it is time consuming, i don’t believe it’s wasted time, altho, certainly, not allowing it to take too much time is important, too.

regarding “heat and light,” for some, heat is there, understandably-so, but, again, it should not be forgotten, sin is the cause, not those attempting to mitigate damages, esp not in Jesus’ name, as i’m convinced, is your central motivation in all matters. (i have the advantage of reading your posts for several years.)

“don’t kill the messenger!” is a very old quote.

i’m not sure what is best, or what is possible.
i hope you continue to do what you are called to do, without restraint.

likewise, i’m not expecting others to restrain their honest questions, either. true progress cannot be made without honesty. honesty can have some rough edges.

on a public forum, it takes time for folks to get to know each other, it does in real life, too!
it’s never instant.

I may not know Ernie personally or even as well as many of you. But I would say I have followed a bunch of his sermons and other things outside of MN for as long as I seen Ernie posting. Many places I find encouragement - there he is... Surprise! Both of the leaders moving here have fathers who have work(ed) closely alongside Ernie - with God their are no accidents.
To be blunt nobody else in my life as a Christian has God pointed to and allowed to have as much influence into my life as probably Ernie. Hopefully that is a compliment...

Ernie, please don't stop because of me! I'd rather be quiet than for you to feel like you need to be silent.

Wade, please keep speaking up. I was a victim of sexual abuse in a CA setting and I have a number of the same thoughts and questions that you do. It's encouraging to hear others speaking about these things after so many years of Anabaptists either remaining silent or defending abusers.

[Josh]

I think the problem here is the Jeriah Mast and his church presented a unified front where it looks like they asked for a more lenient sentence because the encounters in Haiti were consensual, and because he only engaged in certain less-offensive types of indecent acts. This all happened last week.

Shining Light and their entire constituency need to collectively apologise and repent for this. I can’t express how bad this looks, let alone how bad it is.

[Hats Off]

The well respected minister (bishop) who was silenced and excommunicated recently for what was thought to be a wrong doctrine of forgiveness wrote an eight page document complete with scripture references for his understanding of forgiveness. Now some people are responding that it doesn't take eight pages to explain forgiveness even though they haven't read it. Basic forgiveness is very simple and could be explained in less than half a page. However, eight pages aren't adequate to explain all the little nuances of the topic, based on individual circumstances.

The church leadership says they can't forgive him because he doesn't come asking for it. He says he can't with a clear conscience make the confession that the church needs in order to forgive him and lift his excommunication. He seems to be afraid to go speak to church leadership because the last time he tried, it ended up in a he said - she said situation. His family are pushing him to just say what he is asked to say so he can move on with his life. He says that would be lying. And so we have grid-lock.

What does forgiveness look like in this context? I am confident he has forgiven his accusers and is ready to move on but first needs his excommunication lifted. I am very much at odds with my church leadership on this issue. I respect the individuals who make up the conference body but not the conference as institution.

[Josh]

Hats Off,

The people involved will end up pushing that bishop into the arms of a less conservative group, unless they decide to back down. I’m sorry that you are having to go through this.

[Hats Off]

Hats Off,

The people involved will end up pushing that bishop into the arms of a less conservative group, unless they decide to back down. I’m sorry that you are having to go through this.

Thanks, Josh. That is what is about to happen unless I can do some influencing.