Forgiveness

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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GaryK
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Forgiveness

Post by GaryK »

Josh wrote:I am unsure why a Christian person would think forgiveness from a victim should mean the law would enact a lesser sentence.

Something is very wrong if our culture and doctrines are leading people to think that way.
I've been thinking quite a lot about forgiveness recently and even preached a sermon on it a couple of weeks ago.

I agree that we need more teaching on issues that pertain to the breaking of laws and how we as Christians and churches handle such things.

However, I think I can understand how people could come to the understanding that confessing ones sins and receiving forgiveness in most cases does affect the consequences that would justly be ours to endure for the rest of our lives, if there was no such thing as forgiveness. I think all of us would agree that we are ever so grateful that God did not take the approach: "I'm going to forgive you, but you must still bear the full and just consequences of all the sins you have ever committed".

I believe in areas like sexual abuse and other heinous acts one should realize that there are lawful consequences that will accompany such deeds and that forgiveness from the law is not something to be expected. Having said that, I think we all, as followers of Jesus, do well to check our hearts to make sure we are not using the just legal consequences of committing such deeds to justify an unforgiving spirit on our part against the perpetrators of those deeds. We, as followers of Jesus, should be accepting, but never happy, that anyone has to go through the consequences of what the law justly requires in such cases.

Just to be clear Josh, I don't think that is what you are doing in your post. I actually agree with it.

A sobering reminder of the importance of forgiveness. Notice especially the warning in verse 35. I really do not want all of my wrongdoings to be restored to my account because of a lack of forgiveness on my part!
Matthew 18:21-35 NKJV 21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 "And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 "But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 "The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, 'Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27 "Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, 'Pay me what you owe!' 29 "So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30 "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 "So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 "Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 'Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."
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Josh
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Josh »

There seems to be some confusion about forgiveness and repentance, which aren’t very related. Someone should repent whether or not the other person forgives them.

If a human forgives me, I do not expect the consequences to change. If I did, I wouldn’t have a repentant spirit.

In fact, a repentant spirit is one willing to accept consequences and to try to reconcile with the person who was wronged. It also means not trying to escape just punishments.

What is particularly disturbing is when victims are pressured to forgive so that an abuser faces fewer consequences. To me, this is a sign of a very unrepentant spirit.
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GaryK
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by GaryK »

Josh wrote:There seems to be some confusion about forgiveness and repentance, which aren’t very related. Someone should repent whether or not the other person forgives them.

If a human forgives me, I do not expect the consequences to change. If I did, I wouldn’t have a repentant spirit.

In fact, a repentant spirit is one willing to accept consequences and to try to reconcile with the person who was wronged. It also means not trying to escape just punishments.

What is particularly disturbing is when victims are pressured to forgive so that an abuser faces fewer consequences. To me, this is a sign of a very unrepentant spirit.
Can you explain how forgiveness and repentance aren't very related? If God forgives you, do the consequences change?

1 John 1:9 NKJV 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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QuietObserver
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by QuietObserver »

This reminds me of female police officer in Texas who shot a black man in his home. The victims brother who forgave her said he didn’t want her to go to prison. I was very moved by the courtroom hug and his forgiveness. But I was also glad that justice was served. It wouldn’t have felt just for her to be forgiven and be let off the hook.
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ABC 123
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by ABC 123 »

If there is no fear of repercussions for our actions, admitting our sin and asking another to forgive us would be cheap. There is a cost, a price to pay for our actions. Even though God forgives us when we ask Him to, we have to get to the point of fear and trembling that our sin really is exceedingly sinful and be willing to accept whatever may come to us, thus our need to plead for God's mercy and help.
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GaryK
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by GaryK »

QuietObserver wrote:This reminds me of female police officer in Texas who shot a black man in his home. The victims brother who forgave her said he didn’t want her to go to prison. I was very moved by the courtroom hug and his forgiveness. But I was also glad that justice was served. It wouldn’t have felt just for her to be forgiven and be let off the hook.
The underlined is what I'm trying to explore. What should our response be as observers to this incident. Is being glad justice was served a NT Kingdom response?
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Mountain Merle
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by Mountain Merle »

GaryK wrote:Is being glad justice was served a NT Kingdom response?
I don't have this thought through....but I don't think there is any one response that you can hang onto from start to finish in this kind of circumstance. Actually, I think in the beginning, anger is an appropriate reaction. I think the things that make God angry should make His children angry as well. Should we stay there or should we let it build until we retaliate and "render evil for evil"? Of course not. At some point we forgive. We must; for the person who needs it and for the good of ourselves. But it's a process. I personally think it's ok to be glad that some form of justice is served on evil. Again, not in the sense of having a revengeful spirit, but being glad that the world is a safer place for children.
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GaryK
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by GaryK »

Mountain Merle wrote:
GaryK wrote:Is being glad justice was served a NT Kingdom response?
I don't have this thought through....but I don't think there is any one response that you can hang onto from start to finish in this kind of circumstance. Actually, I think in the beginning, anger is an appropriate reaction. I think the things that make God angry should make His children angry as well. Should we stay there or should we let it build until we retaliate and "render evil for evil"? Of course not. At some point we forgive. We must; for the person who needs it and for the good of ourselves. But it's a process. I personally think it's ok to be glad that some form of justice is served on evil. Again, not in the sense of having a revengeful spirit, but being glad that the world is a safer place for children.
Good points.

Isn't being glad the world is a safer place for children different than being glad justice is served. The way the world views justice is "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" - consequences as near equal to the wrongdoing as possible.

In the case QuietObserver referenced, the victim's brother said he didn't want her to go to prison. It seems to me he is saying that he doesn't want justice to be served but rather that forgiveness trump justice. There is a reason his response was so powerful and I think it's because what he portrayed is the NT Kingdom way. I think he accepted what justice demanded, but he wasn't glad about it.
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RZehr
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by RZehr »

And how does Romans 12:17-21 come into play?
17 ¶ Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Forgiveness

Post by joshuabgood »

Jesus forgave Zacheus, however a measure of justice was also served. God forgave David, however, a measure of justice was also served. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross but a measure of justice was served.

Still there is something scandalous about grace, in a good way. However, it isn't to be demanded or expected...
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