Of Baptism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
MaxPC
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by MaxPC »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
And while I'm here, there was an earlier comment:
German Baptist [Brethren] do a much briefer period (a few weeks), and whilst they believe baptism does wash away sins they also grant that there is a divine grace and mystery in God being willing to save the honest seeker during this time.
For clarity, the OGBB conferences (Old and New both) have no instruction class. This has always been one of the differences between us and full-Anabaptists. A couple of the ministry will visit the applicant (seeking baptism) in their home one evening simply to verify their desire for baptism and membership, to briefly cover the general group beliefs and practices, and to arrange time/date/details for the baptism (usually within the week, but not always) since it's nearly always at a river, stream, pond, etc.
Heir, a question: would you say it's easier for nonBrethren-born to be baptized into membership with the OGBB than it is for nonMennonite-born to gain membership with a Mennonite fellowship?
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Sudsy
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

gcdonner wrote:
I do believe and teach that something genuinely takes place in immersion, whether we define it as the point of salvation, or a confirmation of it is beyond the pale of scripture overall. What we do know is that Paul admonishes us, when we are immersed, as a symbol of the death-burial-resurrection of Christ, to reckon ourselves dead unto sin, and upon rising, to being alive unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
1Pe_3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Hi gc, thought and question regarding the above in a previous post of yours -

I was baptised by immersion quite young and was taught at that time that baptism was more an initial act of obedience. Not that it was necessary but that it reflected a public identification with becoming a follower of Christ. Jesus was my Lord and Saviour. I never bought the idea that water baptism (immersion) was some kind of entry point into a local church and it's unique Christian beliefs. Don't see this in NT writings. Seems to me this was a man made addition.

However, the point you made regarding the picture Paul gives us of dying to sin and being made alive unto Christ, I think has some special meaning and perhaps is why so many born again belivers still reckon (see themselves) as still sinners rather than saints. When I still see myself as a sinner of sorts, I give myself an excuse or at least dull my conscience regarding sins I commit. Seems to me Paul is saying we need to have our minds transformed to see ourselves as holy children of God with new hearts and guided by the Holy Spirit and this will allow this truth to become manifest more and more in our living. We must control how we think about ourselves and praise God for what He has done to our hearts and given us the Holy Spirit to guide and empower our living.

I have never understood long delays regarding water baptism but I do think it would have been good prior to my water baptism to be taught what Paul said here about it. And that sure doesn't take much time.

Any thoughts on this ?
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by Heirbyadoption »

MaxPC wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:
And while I'm here, there was an earlier comment:
German Baptist [Brethren] do a much briefer period (a few weeks), and whilst they believe baptism does wash away sins they also grant that there is a divine grace and mystery in God being willing to save the honest seeker during this time.
For clarity, the OGBB conferences (Old and New both) have no instruction class. This has always been one of the differences between us and full-Anabaptists. A couple of the ministry will visit the applicant (seeking baptism) in their home one evening simply to verify their desire for baptism and membership, to briefly cover the general group beliefs and practices, and to arrange time/date/details for the baptism (usually within the week, but not always) since it's nearly always at a river, stream, pond, etc.
Heir, a question: would you say it's easier for nonBrethren-born to be baptized into membership with the OGBB than it is for nonMennonite-born to gain membership with a Mennonite fellowship?
Yes, by far.
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Martin
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by Martin »

Shoesnsocks wrote:All very interesting, yet it has left me a but confused. A short story about myself, a little over a year ago, after years of conviction about my sin, I admitted to myself that most assuredly, I needed Christ. I started reading the bible, and went to a non denominational church that had hardly any emphasis on baptism at all, I came to know the pastor very well and he never even asked if I would be baptized. Eventually I left that church and started going to a baptist church and I wanted to become baptized, but I began to wonder if I was ever really saved and this led me to never actually get baptized( I wanted to know I was a true believer first) now I have been having second thoughts about the baptist church, and have taken an interest to anabaptist writings and practices. This is the first time in my life I've even been challenged on my views towards baptisms place in relation to saving grace, whether or not it is an act of obedience from the regenerated heart, or whether it is the point of regeneration. I will have a lot of studying to do.


Mennonet is confusing to me as well. James Lowry would be an excellent person to discuss the Anabaptist view of baptism with. He has studied the early Anabaptist beliefs extensively and is also a conservative Mennonite. I can pm you with his contact info if you wish. Also, Edsel B and Lester B would be scholarly sources as well.
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Shoesnsocks
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by Shoesnsocks »

Heirbyadoption wrote:Mennonet is confusing to me as well. James Lowry would be an excellent person to discuss the Anabaptist view of baptism with. He has studied the early Anabaptist beliefs extensively and is also a conservative Mennonite. I can pm you with his contact info if you wish. Also, Edsel B and Lester B would be scholarly sources as well.
As long as this is something that is O.K. with him that that would be very much appreciated.
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EdselB
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by EdselB »

Shoesnsocks wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:Mennonet is confusing to me as well. James Lowry would be an excellent person to discuss the Anabaptist view of baptism with. He has studied the early Anabaptist beliefs extensively and is also a conservative Mennonite. I can pm you with his contact info if you wish. Also, Edsel B and Lester B would be scholarly sources as well.
As long as this is something that is O.K. with him that that would be very much appreciated.
Here is a sermon that I preached on Baptism a few years back.

http://shippensburgchristianfellowship. ... mon_id=338

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gcdonner
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by gcdonner »

Sudsy wrote: I have never understood long delays regarding water baptism but I do think it would have been good prior to my water baptism to be taught what Paul said here about it. And that sure doesn't take much time.

Any thoughts on this ?
I wasn't taught this in my Christian life, but it occurred to me while studying Romans 6 a few years ago. Like you, I don't see the need or the biblical precedence for long drawn out preparations prior to immersion. I notice that in scripture, often the person who has been regenerated requests baptism, not that they are asked if they want it. This suggests to me that the need has been posed for regeneration, as it was on the day of Pentecost, and that immersion was part and parcel of the whole, not a separated part. I too wish that I had been encouraged to "reckon myself dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto Christ", and to believe that something "real" would take place in the process. I hesitate to call it a sacrament as such, since there is no grace inherent in it apart from the faith and operation of God intertwining, similar to communion. There is "real presence" to be experienced if we believe.
As you pointed out, it doesn't take much time, nor has it in my practical experience when I have had opportunity to encourage those entering the waters of baptism. A few minutes that can make the experience so much more "real", so much more than mere symbolism. Yes, it is symbolism, but of something that is genuinely taking place, here and now.
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MaxPC
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by MaxPC »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:
And while I'm here, there was an earlier comment:
For clarity, the OGBB conferences (Old and New both) have no instruction class. This has always been one of the differences between us and full-Anabaptists. A couple of the ministry will visit the applicant (seeking baptism) in their home one evening simply to verify their desire for baptism and membership, to briefly cover the general group beliefs and practices, and to arrange time/date/details for the baptism (usually within the week, but not always) since it's nearly always at a river, stream, pond, etc.
Heir, a question: would you say it's easier for nonBrethren-born to be baptized into membership with the OGBB than it is for nonMennonite-born to gain membership with a Mennonite fellowship?
Yes, by far.
Thank you :D
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Sudsy wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
I do believe and teach that something genuinely takes place in immersion, whether we define it as the point of salvation, or a confirmation of it is beyond the pale of scripture overall. What we do know is that Paul admonishes us, when we are immersed, as a symbol of the death-burial-resurrection of Christ, to reckon ourselves dead unto sin, and upon rising, to being alive unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
1Pe_3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Hi gc, thought and question regarding the above in a previous post of yours -

I was baptised by immersion quite young and was taught at that time that baptism was more an initial act of obedience. Not that it was necessary but that it reflected a public identification with becoming a follower of Christ. Jesus was my Lord and Saviour. I never bought the idea that water baptism (immersion) was some kind of entry point into a local church and it's unique Christian beliefs. Don't see this in NT writings. Seems to me this was a man made addition.

However, the point you made regarding the picture Paul gives us of dying to sin and being made alive unto Christ, I think has some special meaning and perhaps is why so many born again belivers still reckon (see themselves) as still sinners rather than saints. When I still see myself as a sinner of sorts, I give myself an excuse or at least dull my conscience regarding sins I commit. Seems to me Paul is saying we need to have our minds transformed to see ourselves as holy children of God with new hearts and guided by the Holy Spirit and this will allow this truth to become manifest more and more in our living. We must control how we think about ourselves and praise God for what He has done to our hearts and given us the Holy Spirit to guide and empower our living.

I have never understood long delays regarding water baptism but I do think it would have been good prior to my water baptism to be taught what Paul said here about it. And that sure doesn't take much time.

Any thoughts on this ?
Good thoughts, Sudsy. As someone pondering re-baptism (a believers baptism, really), this gives me some things to think about.
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Sudsy
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Re: Of Baptism

Post by Sudsy »

gcdonner wrote:
Sudsy wrote: I have never understood long delays regarding water baptism but I do think it would have been good prior to my water baptism to be taught what Paul said here about it. And that sure doesn't take much time.

Any thoughts on this ?
I wasn't taught this in my Christian life, but it occurred to me while studying Romans 6 a few years ago. Like you, I don't see the need or the biblical precedence for long drawn out preparations prior to immersion. I notice that in scripture, often the person who has been regenerated requests baptism, not that they are asked if they want it. This suggests to me that the need has been posed for regeneration, as it was on the day of Pentecost, and that immersion was part and parcel of the whole, not a separated part. I too wish that I had been encouraged to "reckon myself dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto Christ", and to believe that something "real" would take place in the process. I hesitate to call it a sacrament as such, since there is no grace inherent in it apart from the faith and operation of God intertwining, similar to communion. There is "real presence" to be experienced if we believe.
As you pointed out, it doesn't take much time, nor has it in my practical experience when I have had opportunity to encourage those entering the waters of baptism. A few minutes that can make the experience so much more "real", so much more than mere symbolism. Yes, it is symbolism, but of something that is genuinely taking place, here and now.
Thanks gc. Where do you think the idea originated that water baptism was an entry point into the local church. Seems to me when we are born again and receive a new heart, we become part of the Church and brotherhood of other saints wherever they chose to fellowship and I don't see in the NT where water baptism is linked to joining a specific 'brand' of local fellowship. Nor do I see the agreeing to a unique dogma in this 'joining' a local church. Seems to me water baptism is often more tied to becoming a member of a local church than it is picturing what Paul said. And, of course, what Paul said doesn't seem to make much sense as a picture by sprinkling either, imo.
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