Of Baptism

[gcdonner]

One other bit that makes me believe that one is saved when faith has found its way to Jesus, is the verses that make it very clear that "neither is there salvation in any other". To me that seems that there is only one way to be saved, and I have a hard time believing God would not save a sinner who converted at a time and in a place where they could not be baptized due to immediate persecution unto death.

Extenuating circumstances are taken into account, as we saw the Cornelius, in that God reversed the normal order to prove his own point. Good does indeed look at the heart:

1Pe_3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I prefer baptism sooner than later as the example of NT scripture seems to indicate. The problem is finding someone or a church who will immerse you without requiring a person to adhere to all their doctrines FIRST.
IMO, discipleship comes after baptism, not before, just as the vows of marriage come first before the co-habitation.
IMO, it is part and parcel of the salvation experience and not a "proving" of being in harmony with a particular set of doctrines. (I know I will get in trouble for this here...)
I am not saying that you shouldn't find fellowship and a place of discipleship, but those are issues after baptism, in my opinion. Perhaps the Baptist church would fit that ideal the closest, not that I am suggesting you should become a Baptist or any other particular denomination.
I often think of the Ethiopian eunuch in this regard. (see Acts 8:26-40)
You should take comfort in the fact that God is drawing you to himself and will provide whatever means you need to be obedient to him and to fulfill all that he has put into your heart. Your seeking is authored by him, just as Jesus said,

Joh_6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him...

Blessings for your journey.

[lesterb]

One other bit that makes me believe that one is saved when faith has found its way to Jesus, is the verses that make it very clear that "neither is there salvation in any other". To me that seems that there is only one way to be saved, and I have a hard time believing God would not save a sinner who converted at a time and in a place where they could not be baptized due to immediate persecution unto death.

The early church believed that the "baptism of blood" (ie. martyrdom) adequately replaced baptism with water.

That's interesting. Is there any scripture to support that?

When I say early church in this case, I'm talking about post apostolic, or ante-nicene. I don't remember how they supported the idea. They actually went so far as, in the case of Montanus and his followers, to teach that martyrdom guaranteed your salvation. People went out of their way to become martyrs.

[gcdonner]

One other bit that makes me believe that one is saved when faith has found its way to Jesus, is the verses that make it very clear that "neither is there salvation in any other". To me that seems that there is only one way to be saved, and I have a hard time believing God would not save a sinner who converted at a time and in a place where they could not be baptized due to immediate persecution unto death.

The early church believed that the "baptism of blood" (ie. martyrdom) adequately replaced baptism with water.

That's interesting. Is there any scripture to support that?

That was a tradition of the early church, most likely in the second century, not found in scripture.

[MaxPC]

The early church believed that the "baptism of blood" (ie. martyrdom) adequately replaced baptism with water.

That's interesting. Is there any scripture to support that?

When I say early church in this case, I'm talking about post apostolic, or ante-nicene. I don't remember how they supported the idea. They actually went so far as, in the case of Montanus and his followers, to teach that martyrdom guaranteed your salvation. People went out of their way to become martyrs.

Lester, since you mentioned this alternative baptism, kindly allow me to share our Catholic definition and the Scriptures we use in support for "Baptism by Blood":
1-We see it as a supreme act of faith in imitation of the Passion of our Lord.
2-The martyr must also have full contrition for his sins.

Baptism by Water is still our primary choice but martyrdom is also valid especially under the two conditions mentioned above.

The Scriptures Catholics use in support of Baptism by Blood:
Matthew 10:32 & 39
John 14:21
Luke 23:42-43 (this one emphasizes that the thief on the cross was assured by Jesus he'll be with Jesus in paradise even though the thief was never baptized.)

We have writings from the Early Church Fathers of the Third Century on forward. In the Third Century we find it discussed by
-Cyprian (Epistle LXXII; Treatise I and Epistle I to Donatus) and
-Tertullian (Enchiridion Patristicum under "de baptisme")
As well as many others that we reference for our teaching on Baptism by Blood.

Your mileage may vary. Am only sharing from our understandings and for clarity, I am not arguing against anyone else's interpretations.

Time for Bible and bed.

[Valerie]

You know I've actually been thinking the same thing since I wrote that about Cornelius and his house. And my apologies to Valerie if I came off as argumentative, I'm a confused sinner who is being greatly challenged in spiritual matters right now.

It does seem to me that baptism is absolutely a necessity after someone has found faith in Christ and not an option for one who desires to be his disciple, and 1 Peter 3:21 seems to back this up pretty well.
And thank you gcdonner, I have been having a very rough time recently in what I would just call "seeking" and I have met with more discouragement than I ever thought possible, sometimes it breaks my heart.

Apology accepted, even if I was not offended at all, you are trying to reason all this out and understand it, and I understand that. You are truly seeking to obey. I'm glad George explained that to you about what all was happening in Acts, I had planned to come back with that too when I could get to my computer- Acts, the Holy Spirit was all over the place doing things in a not so much 'format' but however He saw fit- George's explanation of that to me is correct from what I've studied too-

Also, I want you to know you are not alone in your discouragement. I have been a Christian over 40 years (not always faithful though) and I too have been so discouraged the last few years trying to seek where we belong. Someone said to me "I hope you find peace in Christ Valerie". My reply was, it's not Christ I don't have peace about- He is the Head of the Church- the Head is intact. The body though? It's so fragmented in these days we live, that it can be SO discouraging becaue there are thousands of sects and opinions-I am quite certain, this was not the Father's will anymore than Israel remained intact in His will when they were His elect. Now the 'elect', New Covenant/Testament Christians, are way more mixed up than Israel ever was in being of 'same mind and same doctrine'. You're discouragement in seeking is valid when you consider the situation we find ourselves in today. There are many out there with the same discouragement so don't be hard on yourself- keep seeking, keep knocking, keep asking. My faith in Christ will not be shaken but people sure have confused it all- Jesus said "When the Son of Man returns will He find faith in all the earth?" (Luke 18:8)- I personally believe this situation of sectarianism is causing more and more to 'doubt the faith' and 'doubt the Bible' and 'doubt the Holy Spirit'- therefore dismissing it all- (of course there are many causes of atheism-Romans 1 for example)-

Anyways, keep fighting the good fight of faith. We have an adversary who goes about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)- he is purposeful about trying to discourage us in our "working out our salvation with fear and trembling"- you are ever so correct that Baptism is essential- the only exception we know of in Scripture was the thief on the Cross- and for obvious reasons, his lack of baptism, didn't mean he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise. It is essential in the Great Commission and as GC pointed out, we have made it much more about doctrine than the Apostles ever did-
Also, if one was martyred before their baptism then the example of the thief on the cross should clear that up- and if there were people who wanted to be martyred-well- what can we say? I won't use those examples to dismiss the understanding the early church had about it.

Rejoice in your salvation because the Father drew you to begin with!
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That is sufficient for you to rejoice! He drew you to Christ!
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ Philippians 1:6

[Josh]

This seems very reasonable. Having a chance to know the person is important too, IMO. "Communion" comes from roots meaning "with unity" and those who are part of the communion are professing that unity. (Hope that wasn't too convoluted. I'm waiting for that chili to heat up and it's making me hungry.)

It helps the stability and peace of the fellowship by avoiding those who lash out, micromanage, or otherwise create an environment of hostility and adversarial conditions.

Where is this supported in scripture?

Paul's rebukes to the church were that they were having too many factions around things like communion whilst tolerating known sin of long term church members. Seems like nothing has changed to present day...

[Judas Maccabeus]

It is not a common belief. German Baptists sort of believe this.

Followers of the Way in Boston has a very strong belief in this, to the point they think most Mennonite aren't saved due if they weren't fully immersed nor saved during instruction class.

You are kidding here, right? Did they get this from the Church of Christ or something?

J.M.

I'm not kidding. My theory is that for it from their CoC or ICoC roots.

Amongst FotW's plans is to set up churches in every city and recruit existing Anabaptists to help plan them provided they accept "correct doctrine" of salvation and marriage.

Just noticed this. Is their anyplace where these are spelled out? Does not appear on website, at least on a 10 minute glance.

J.M.

[ohio jones]

Amongst FotW's plans is to set up churches in every city and recruit existing Anabaptists to help plan[t?] them provided they accept "correct doctrine" of salvation and marriage.

Just noticed this. Is their anyplace where these are spelled out? Does not appear on website, at least on a 10 minute glance.

This message includes a description of those plans.

[MaxPC]

Amongst FotW's plans is to set up churches in every city and recruit existing Anabaptists to help plan[t?] them provided they accept "correct doctrine" of salvation and marriage.

Just noticed this. Is their anyplace where these are spelled out? Does not appear on website, at least on a 10 minute glance.

This message includes a description of those plans.

OJ, I went to your link but didn't hear it or put that way. What I heard was they were alluding to those groups who had moved away from:
-Biblical teachings such as one man/one woman permanent marriage; and other non-negotiables.

-exclude groups who are pro-homosexual including homosexual unions and had embraced political activism; for example some of the MC-USA political left groups.

I may be wrong but that's how I interpreted their words. They were excluding those groups who had moved away from the Bible; not those groups who hold to Salvation, Baptism, and Biblical marriage.

Your mileage may vary however

[Josh]

My commentary was based on personal discussions at KFW 2015 and 2016 with Matthew Milioni and Tim Powers.

At question here is the definition of "biblical marriage", "biblical salvation", and "biblical baptism". Their definition of marriage excludes half of conservative Mennonites and their definition of salvation and baptism draws further lines.

In Kiravilla's book "King Jesus Claims His Church" he defines salvation as something that happens with baptism. That puts him at odds with virtually all Mennonites.