Of Baptism

[Wayne in Maine]

Followers of the Way in Boston has a very strong belief in this, to the point they think most Mennonite aren't saved due if they weren't fully immersed nor saved during instruction class.

In other words, if you were baptized as an unbeliever, you should be rebaptized?
I believe this as well.

I was never immersed but they invite me to preach and commune there anyhow. This causes consternation for a few of the members but this has not even been a point of discussion between the leadership and myself. There are others in their church who have not been immersed who are treated similarly to me by the leadership.

ICOC influence, no doubt.

[Valerie]

It is not a common belief. German Baptists sort of believe this.

Followers of the Way in Boston has a very strong belief in this, to the point they think most Mennonite aren't saved due if they weren't fully immersed nor saved during instruction class.

Seems to me, the Amish believe this as well-which they are Anabaptists?

It is because when Jesus used the terminology "Born Again of Water and of the Spirit" it became common teaching that is referring to Baptism (the water) and then receiving the Holy Spirit, at one's baptism- thus born of 'water and the spirit- born again.

The Amish view on salvation is different enough that the question "At what exact moment are you saved?" doesn't make sense.
Salvation is more of a future event.

Well I believe that their 'baptismal vows' is their confession of faith in Christ- have you read their 'baptismal vows'? Several of my friends were baptized Amish- and at this point you were 'joined to the Church' in that sense they have a similar view of Orthodox- your baptism is your entrance into the Church and you are a Christian- the reason Amish believe (and somewhat similar to Orthodox) is your salvation is the end is because they, like Orthodox (and like the Apostles) believe one can lose their salvation- not 'once saved always saved'- after baptism, you still have 'free will' to leave the faith for the world if you choose. I had read a book by an Amish Bishop from 17-1800's and he seemed to convey baptism as your point of being 'born again'- maybe not the 'end of your salvation' but the point you become born again- born of water and the Spirit- and that is what the historical Church had always taught as well.

[PeterG]

Followers of the Way in Boston has a very strong belief in this, to the point they think most Mennonite aren't saved due if they weren't fully immersed nor saved during instruction class.

I suspect you are treated this way due to being an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing.

If they really believe that most Mennonites aren't saved if they weren't immersed nor saved during instruction class, I don't see why one's status as an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing (which describes most Mennonites) would make a difference.

[MaxPC]

I suspect you are treated this way due to being an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing.

If they really believe that most Mennonites aren't saved if they weren't immersed nor saved during instruction class, I don't see why one's status as an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing (which describes most Mennonites) would make a difference.

Seeking understanding here's & have a non-adversarial question for you:
Does this mean that not all ethnic Mennonites are considered 'Saved' by other Mennonites based upon the mode of baptism?

[RZehr]

I suspect you are treated this way due to being an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing.

If they really believe that most Mennonites aren't saved if they weren't immersed nor saved during instruction class, I don't see why one's status as an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing (which describes most Mennonites) would make a difference.

Seeking understanding here's & have a non-adversarial question for you:
Does this mean that not all ethnic Mennonites are considered 'Saved' by other Mennonites based upon the mode of baptism?

No. While many Mennonites have strong feelings about a mode of baptism, it would not commonly extend so far as to say that one mode doesn't count.

[MaxPC]

If they really believe that most Mennonites aren't saved if they weren't immersed nor saved during instruction class, I don't see why one's status as an ethnic Anabaptist in good standing (which describes most Mennonites) would make a difference.

Seeking understanding here's & have a non-adversarial question for you:
Does this mean that not all ethnic Mennonites are considered 'Saved' by other Mennonites based upon the mode of baptism?

No. While many Mennonites have strong feelings about a mode of baptism, it would not commonly extend so far as to say that one mode doesn't count.

Thank you for clarifying that, RZehr. That's helpful.

[PeterG]

Yes, RZehr is correct.

In the context of Josh's post that I was responding to, the "they" in my post refers to Followers of the Way in Boston, not to Mennonites.

[Shoesnsocks]

All very interesting, yet it has left me a but confused. A short story about myself, a little over a year ago, after years of conviction about my sin, I admitted to myself that most assuredly, I needed Christ. I started reading the bible, and went to a non denominational church that had hardly any emphasis on baptism at all, I came to know the pastor very well and he never even asked if I would be baptized. Eventually I left that church and started going to a baptist church and I wanted to become baptized, but I began to wonder if I was ever really saved and this led me to never actually get baptized( I wanted to know I was a true believer first) now I have been having second thoughts about the baptist church, and have taken an interest to anabaptist writings and practices. This is the first time in my life I've even been challenged on my views towards baptisms place in relation to saving grace, whether or not it is an act of obedience from the regenerated heart, or whether it is the point of regeneration. I will have a lot of studying to do.

[Valerie]

All very interesting, yet it has left me a but confused. A short story about myself, a little over a year ago, after years of conviction about my sin, I admitted to myself that most assuredly, I needed Christ. I started reading the bible, and went to a non denominational church that had hardly any emphasis on baptism at all, I came to know the pastor very well and he never even asked if I would be baptized. Eventually I left that church and started going to a baptist church and I wanted to become baptized, but I began to wonder if I was ever really saved and this led me to never actually get baptized( I wanted to know I was a true believer first) now I have been having second thoughts about the baptist church, and have taken an interest to anabaptist writings and practices. This is the first time in my life I've even been challenged on my views towards baptisms place in relation to saving grace, whether or not it is an act of obedience from the regenerated heart, or whether it is the point of regeneration. I will have a lot of studying to do.

I understand your dilemma/confusion because there are thousands of Christian denominations/sects in America (I am sure more than anywhere in the world)-the west, since the Reformation (14th century forward) has really been sected out with divisions in the faith and different men, using the Scriptures, to start denominations, and interpreting for themselves the Holy Scriptures, disregarding previous interpretations already give to the Church when Christianity began- because of error in Roman Catholicism and practices- all the Reformers and those trying to 'start the Church over again' each attempted to in their own understandings so here we are, a few hundred years later, with such a mixed bag of interpretations/understandings.

Maybe this will help? Did you read the book of Acts yet? Apostle Paul had his 'conversion' experience on the road to Damascus when his eyes were (first blinded) and then opened (Acts 9)- this was his 'conversion' It was there- he "Believed". But then- he had to be baptized-one is baptized, lowered into the water as a 'dying' to the old life, and then raised up, in newness of life (the early church and to this day, would lower you 3 x in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the right of passage into God's kingdom, and originally the church taught that the waters were blessed by prayer and regenerated the person- and then the baptized person was prayed over to receive the Holy Spirit- this was how the early church began making this the pattern- the belief comes first- the baptism, and then the filling of the Holy Spirit. Many churches today seem to make light of this step but Jesus said in Matthew 28:
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

Jesus was baptized not because He needed repentance- He received "John's" baptism, changing the waters- it was there that the Father, Son & Holy Spirit were present at His Baptism- no longer was it 'just' a baptism of repentance, like John's.
It is also where one receives the Holy Spirit- and is illumined.

In the beginning one's conversion and baptism seemed immediate- I am not sure how it came to be one needed so many instruction classes to become Baptized- but it is that way in the ancient faiths and also in many others- in some denominations there is a very brief instruction about it to make sure you understand- reading through the Scriptures, it doesn't appear that one's baptism was delayed at all once you believed.

I'm sharing this with so you don't get too discouraged about it just because there a myriads of viewpoints in these days we live- TODAY people confuse the term "Born Again" that Jesus did with your point of belief- but originally (and to this day) it really is/was referring to your Baptism- born of 'water' and of the "Spirit" from everything I have studied in the early Church- somehow in this last century Born Again started being referred to as the point you believed.

Some people believe it is just a 'symbolic' step of obedience, some believe it is an actual regeneration at the time- but don't let all this confuse you or discourage you as God sees your heart to trust and obey Him.

[Shoesnsocks]

What about when Cornelius' house received the spirit before Baptism? I don't see how an unregenerate can receive the Spirit. Personally I have a hard time basing my beliefs on what the early church did because we don't really know if we even have writings from all the different groups, I find their writings interesting and worth pondering over, but they also had their own false teachings. It has become very obvious though recently to me how important water baptism is, I used to pretty much see it as optional.