Church Drift — Poll

[DrWojo]

We’ve used polls about liberalism and conservatism to stimulate discussion on new threads. This caused me to think in terms of how did the various groups represented here on MN get to the place they currently find themselves. Hence this new poll and thread. Discuss at will.

[steve-in-kville]

What were you doing up at 1:30am? Thinking of this poll, at that?

[steve-in-kville]

Honestly, I do not know how to vote. Our church is actually taking a conservative position within our district, which may involve us pulling away.

[Szdfan]

“Church drift” is something I’ve heard a lot of from conservatives, but it may be helpful if someone could define it?

[AnthonyMartin]

“Church drift” is something I’ve heard a lot of from conservatives, but it may be helpful if someone could define it?

I was just going to post the same thing. From my perspective, church drift describes gradual changes in appearances and clothing styles.

[steve-in-kville]

Sometimes "drift" is confused with "modernizing", which I'm sure can be argued. I'll give an example:

KMF for years did not allow the hanging veil for the ladies. Why? It was considered progressive. Slowly, congregations voted to allow it.

The Dunkard Brethren required strings on their coverings. Why? The fear that taking them away and the coverings would get smaller. That requirement was pulled some years ago, IIRC.

To some, (for men) anything beyond black pants, long sleeved white shirt for church would be "drifting."

As I said, we could debate this 'til the cows come home.

[Neto]

[For me, nothing in the poll really describes my thoughts. Not the fault of the poll, necessarily, we are just in a different place.]

RE: Spiritual drift on the congregational level
lack of close contacts between members, partially due to a scattered congregation, and partially due to lack of Sunday & Wednesday evening meetings, especially prayer meetings.
strong top-down leadership style (spirituality can be seen as something the leaders are taking care of, as opposed to personal responsibility in pursuit of holiness).

re: Cultural drift on the congregational level
strong top-down leadership style that wants to move toward some middle way Western Christianity
leadership or congregational choice for a large congregation, where the desire to bring people in drives a shift in cultural values

[DrWojo]

I hope it’s alright with everyone that I took the liberty to ‘borrow’ this post which I believe was in the “Kingdom Christians-Poll” thread. I did this to illustrate that drift happens over time, even in culture, despite the context even of Church standards. (I.e. — abolishing of ‘Blue Laws). Read on, and I’ll try to further prove my point:

Valerie wrote:
“. . . However- I was put to the test when visiting two churches in my families area of San Diego CA last week- in both churches clearly modesty was not taught nor practiced by all. In fact a greeter lady who handed out bulletins last Sunday at my daughters church had on very short shorts but a long sheer piece draped over like a sheer coat- having been in OH and drawn to Anabaptism so long, it almost made my blood boil to witness such immodesty- can I just call her sister without being judgemental? THAT is a challenge. In Southern CA you're exposed to so much skin you almost get used to it.
And yes, I see Muslims much more modest than even Anabaptists- I've seen them in OH lately where only their eyes show!
(Tertullian wrote about that kind of veiling in the early church)

Is modesty in the eyes of the beholder?
Does Romans 14 help here?

And I agree, if one hasn't been exposed to our taught the correct interpretations, they really may not even realize they are being disobedient-because there are varying views on passages that aren't necessarily obvious in the cultures of the day.”

Back to my point: a long time ago, even in our good old USA, for sure within the Colonies, wouldn’t a lady wearing “very short shorts but a long sheer piece draped over like a sheer coat” have been dealt with by civil authorities for immodesty? Does that not even point to a drift? And would such a drift lead to sin, especially when the long sheer piece draped over like a sheer coat becomes no longer worn, and maybe some years later, due to ‘liberation,’ the top becomes replaced with what the wearer considers a ‘Modest Bikini’ if such a thing were possible?

[Ms. Izzie]

If you are asking, what is the biggest contributor of "drift" in clothing? Mennonite fundamentalism and the idea that whatever is decided with group consensus is the right thing to do. It looks like a dangerous combination to me.

I am much more concerned about what is driving this--than "drift" in clothing. If I am right about what is driving it, then I don't think we will stop with a "drift" in clothing.

[francis]

If you are asking, what is the biggest contributor of "drift" in clothing? Mennonite fundamentalism and the idea that whatever is decided with group consensus is the right thing to do. It looks like a dangerous combination to me.

I am much more concerned about what is driving this--than "drift" in clothing. If I am right about what is driving it, then I don't think we will stop with a "drift" in clothing.

I would agree. I often find that the elders or mission board is at times more likely to demand uniformity in clothing than it is to spreading the Gospel. It's sad but I've definitely seen it happen and it destroys morale and belief in the church as a holy institution. I'm not saying that modesty isn't important, but if we don't say *why* then of course young people will fall away.