Pecking order, social standing and status within Plain Mennonites

[RZehr]

I have people in our churches who I consider friends and brothers that I depend on to tell me what I need to know. And even though I want to be considered "equal" and I hate the idea that they feel this way, they tell me that they do not have the "pull" or however they choose to phrase it, that I have. This is what bothers me. I don't know what more I can do. And in many cases I am closer to them than other families that I'm told are also popular.

[Josh]

I have people in our churches who I consider friends and brothers that I depend on to tell me what I need to know. And even though I want to be considered "equal" and I hate the idea that they feel this way, they tell me that they do not have the "pull" or however they choose to phrase it, that I have. This is what bothers me. I don't know what more I can do. And in many cases I am closer to them than other families that I'm told are also popular.

Yep. Those high up on the social ladder don’t really understand what it’s like for those of us not so high up.

Ultimately I think this popularity contest is not pleasing to the Lord, which is why I opt out of it. But I do have poorer social standing than if I were more careful to only associate and agree with those who are highly esteemed.

Spend some time with a young man who is 25 or who is 40 and of average appearance, with an ok job, decent spiritual life, etc who really wants to get married but is simply not popular enough to be liked.

Then spend some time with a single sister in her 30s who’s never been asked and it’s puzzling why. Well she just doesn’t climb the social ladder. Maybe she had to work a lot and her family was poor, or her dad later in life was disabled. Now she’s so old nobody is ever going to notice her, and besides in late 30s it’s really hard to meet anyone.

It really bothers me that any group of “conservative” Anabaptists is ok acting this way. I predict all who do will eventually be spiritual dead, or go into the world.

[Josh]

5. Moderate or slightly progressive views. Diehard conservatives tend not to be very popular. However they may still be given considerable influence at times. Children of diehards don't typically fare very well.

Not faring well in the sense of popularity (boxes 1-9)? Or not faring well in the sense of spiritual fruit (second set 1-6)? Or both?

1-9. Children are for some reason expected to share the stigma of their parents. It is not fair, but moderate and progressive's children will look down on, or even belittle or mock the children of diehard conservatives. There is something in human nature that likes to pick on the "uncool" ones.

I accidentally learned that, far from being ashamed of it, it turns out that driving brand new high end sports cars (preferably painted red) generally boosts your reputation with plain people.

[RZehr]

I have people in our churches who I consider friends and brothers that I depend on to tell me what I need to know. And even though I want to be considered "equal" and I hate the idea that they feel this way, they tell me that they do not have the "pull" or however they choose to phrase it, that I have. This is what bothers me. I don't know what more I can do. And in many cases I am closer to them than other families that I'm told are also popular.

Yep. Those high up on the social ladder don’t really understand what it’s like for those of us not so high up.

Ultimately I think this popularity contest is not pleasing to the Lord, which is why I opt out of it. But I do have poorer social standing than if I were more careful to only associate and agree with those who are highly esteemed.

You say you are not so high up on the ladder - yet I guess you still find yourself on the ladder. Part of the problem is that no one can truly and alone opt off of it, can they? It is foisted upon each of us. We shouldn't be trying to become or stay popular. And that goes for the "popular" ones and the "unpopular" ones. And yet I find on occasion that comments are made about it anyway, and I don't like it.

Spend some time with a young man who is 25 or who is 40 and of average appearance, with an ok job, decent spiritual life, etc who really wants to get married but is simply not popular enough to be liked.

Then spend some time with a single sister in her 30s who’s never been asked and it’s puzzling why. Well she just doesn’t climb the social ladder. Maybe she had to work a lot and her family was poor, or her dad later in life was disabled. Now she’s so old nobody is ever going to notice her, and besides in late 30s it’s really hard to meet anyone.

I think I do this. And I don't notice it making any change on their end or my end. Although changing the social hierarchy hasn't necessarily been my purpose in doing so.

It really bothers me that any group of “conservative” Anabaptists is ok acting this way. I predict all who do will eventually be spiritual dead, or go into the world.

I agree.

[YorkandAdams]

With Eastern, I wonder how much (if any) their youth activity policy has on this subject. My understanding is they do not have "youth group activities" sponsored by the church. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. However, they do permit volleyball and softball games when they are under the family authority instead. Not sure if I'm saying this right. For example, if my parents are okay with me inviting my friends to play a game of ball, then that is okay. But the church won't organize and provide an adult to oversee it.

I think what happens is they popular or liberal ones then are invited to the ball game. The unpopular ones aren't. The conservatives aren't because their parents wouldn't allow them. Then you end up with a clique being formed within which communication is developed by virtue of familiarity, which keeps them in the know on current events.

We had organized and scheduled youth actives as a church. Growing up I remember there was at times events a teenager would arranged volley, basket, softball game and invited certain friends and not the whole youth group in the name of "managing the size". I remember my occasionally my parents forcing us to invite certain people who would not have been invited otherwise.

I believe that your observations are correct. I will add that cliques in eastern also serve the function of being the first step out of the ultra-conservative circles (at least for the youth). Those in "popular" cliques are able to "test the waters" when it comes to breaking both the church standard and social norms. After they have seen enough of there friends leave, they feel confident enough to leave and go somewhere else themselves.

[YorkandAdams]

Not faring well in the sense of popularity (boxes 1-9)? Or not faring well in the sense of spiritual fruit (second set 1-6)? Or both?

1-9. Children are for some reason expected to share the stigma of their parents. It is not fair, but moderate and progressive's children will look down on, or even belittle or mock the children of diehard conservatives. There is something in human nature that likes to pick on the "uncool" ones.

I accidentally learned that, far from being ashamed of it, it turns out that driving brand new high end sports cars (preferably painted red) generally boosts your reputation with plain people.

Disclaimer - Results May Vary

[YorkandAdams]

Ultimately I think this popularity contest is not pleasing to the Lord

Agreed.

[Josh]

A particular challenge for seekers is how to simultaneously be a seeker yet also seem like you want to test the waters and be a bit more liberal.

Surprisingly, I seem to have mastered this skill, and it indeed leads to a lot more social acceptance.

[cmbl]

I believe that your observations are correct. I will add that cliques in eastern also serve the function of being the first step out of the ultra-conservative circles (at least for the youth). Those in "popular" cliques are able to "test the waters" when it comes to breaking both the church standard and social norms. After they have seen enough of there friends leave, they feel confident enough to leave and go somewhere else themselves.

Question on how this works. Eastern and Washington County people are supposed to have a principle that says young people should...

(in theory) want to be spending time edifying the Lord in there activities. Singing songs of praise to the Lord, working hard, spending time with their family. The Eastern view is that they should be grown up and responsible well before they are ready to get married.

(from the Eastern Bible School AMA thread)

I guess I identified "no youth groups" with the principle of expecting young people to be serious-minded and responsible. But if "no youth groups" encourages cliques, to what extent do Eastern's cliques undermine this principle? Are the popular cliques always liberal?

[Hats Off]

I have people in our churches who I consider friends and brothers that I depend on to tell me what I need to know. And even though I want to be considered "equal" and I hate the idea that they feel this way, they tell me that they do not have the "pull" or however they choose to phrase it, that I have. This is what bothers me. I don't know what more I can do. And in many cases I am closer to them than other families that I'm told are also popular.

It appears you are where you are by default; don't resist your position. There is opportunity to be an asset to your church or community by virtue of your standing. There is no point in trying to be less "popular." We should all do our best to ignore the social order and fill the place where we are.