The Trinity

[ohio jones]

The Oneness Pentecostals like to point out that no record exists in the New Testament of someone being baptised or married with the Trinitarian formula...

Is there a record in the New Testament of any of the words spoken in performing a marriage?

[Soloist]

I have no clue what the proper technical term is for the movement (which I think many of you would be in sympathy with) that the Holy Spirit specifically guides in interpretive authority when we study the bible. I would not. "activating" this new special power of the Holy Spirit pretty much didn't come along until Luther and Calvin (shudder when I type their names...LOL).

Actually you can read Justin Martyr and see it. I see it described by Tertullian. There are others that mention it but not expressly by my search terms
Perhaps you mean something more complicated as I haven’t read much of Luther or Calvin

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What do you see this meaning?

[Sudsy]

The Oneness Pentecostals like to point out that no record exists in the New Testament of someone being baptised or married with the Trinitarian formula...

Is there a record in the New Testament of any of the words spoken in performing a marriage?

Not that I know of but scripture does say this - Col 3:17 -

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

[Neto]

In respect to the trinity question itself, I am assuming that there is no denial of the deity of the Father, the Son, or of the Holy Spirit. There is no Biblical basis for any such doctrine, so a position like that moves into heresy.

Can you show me where in scripture the Holy Spirit is called God?
There is no argument that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and the spirit of Jesus, but is the Holy Spirit actually a God?
Spirit is used many times but I do not see the spirit referred to as God but rather simply the spirit of God or the spirit of Jesus.
Could it be assumed? Sure but the trinity doctrine if I remember correctly wasn’t until 400AD odd. The first meeting was sought to determine the exact nature of God and Jesus. The one in the 400s was over the Holy Spirit.

I wouldn't use the article 'a' - "a God". The word "God" is a cumbersome one, because many consider it a name that refers specifically to the Father. That is why I used the word "deity", as a term that describes the qualities of God in a general sense, avoiding any SPECIFIC inferred reference to either the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit.

But I will need to do some study before I can give specific references.

I did some looking, but my usual approach is to do a read-through of the entire Scripture with one question in mind. Takes a long time, so this discussion would have fallen into a dark corner by the time I could finish.

With that in consideration, the best example that comes to mind is in the book of the Acts, chapter 5 - the story of Anninias & Sapphira. vs 3 & 4:
"How is it that you have allowed Satan to fill your thoughts to the extent that you have lied to the Holy Spirit? Before you sold the property, it was yours to do with as you chose. Then when you all sold it, the money was yours, to do with whatever you wanted. You haven't lied to other people, but to God."

But it's a good question. There are many things that sort of slip in with the doctrines we have been taught, and it takes probing questions to sort it out. I will probably start a read-through for this question, but maybe not until after I finish my current round of Sunday School teaching for our group of "old men".

[gcdonner]

Even the Oneness Pentecostals are the result of a split.

Most churches are...

Precisely.

Even the RC, Max...

[Soloist]

I did some looking, but my usual approach is to do a read-through of the entire Scripture with one question in mind. Takes a long time, so this discussion would have fallen into a dark corner by the time I could finish.

With that in consideration, the best example that comes to mind is in the book of the Acts, chapter 5 - the story of Anninias & Sapphira. vs 3 & 4:
"How is it that you have allowed Satan to fill your thoughts to the extent that you have lied to the Holy Spirit? Before you sold the property, it was yours to do with as you chose. Then when you all sold it, the money was yours, to do with whatever you wanted. You haven't lied to other people, but to God."

But it's a good question. There are many things that sort of slip in with the doctrines we have been taught, and it takes probing questions to sort it out. I will probably start a read-through for this question, but maybe not until after I finish my current round of Sunday School teaching for our group of "old men".

I will be interested in your eventual response. I don’t overly see Godhood ascribed to the Holy Spirit there but rather that the Holy Spirit was possibly in them and being the spirit of God they did both

[MaxPC]

Most churches are...

Precisely.

Even the RC, Max...

Yes indeed, GC If anyone states otherwise, then either they do not know history or they are simply deceiving themselves.

[Sudsy]

The Oneness Pentecostals like to point out that no record exists in the New Testament of someone being baptised or married with the Trinitarian formula...

Is there a record in the New Testament of any of the words spoken in performing a marriage?

Not that I know of but scripture does say this - Col 3:17 -

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

A follow up to that verse I gave above Col 3:17 -

To everyone - what all does your church do in the 'name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' ? Water baptisms ? Baby dedications ? New church memberships ? Other church practises ?

And how do you reconcile this with this Col 3:17 text ?

[gcdonner]

Is there a record in the New Testament of any of the words spoken in performing a marriage?

Not that I know of but scripture does say this - Col 3:17 -

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

A follow up to that verse I gave above Col 3:17 -

To everyone - what all does your church do in the 'name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' ? Water baptisms ? Baby dedications ? New church memberships ? Other church practises ?

And how do you reconcile this with this Col 3:17 text ?

Is this an either/or situation or a both/and? Just as scripture quotes Jesus as using the triune phraseology of Matt 28, so also does it use the singular terminology of Acts 2. I suggest it was merely a reference to what Jesus said, and not a doctrinal statement that Peter was making on the day of Pentecost, just as we have the name Immanuel recorded in the same passage as the name of Jesus/Yeshua, neither is a stand alone name, but are descriptive names of the Son's mission on earth.
My name is George Lewis Donner, but most people just call me George, some call me Georgie or even G-G or Giggie or...none of them changes who I am or how I relate to others. It is unusual, however for my nicknames (and there are others) to be used in more solemn gatherings.
Could it be said that praying in the "name" of Jesus also implies his relationship with the Father and the actions of the Spirit? Why, we can do things in the name of Jesus without even speaking his name. Think about that?
We spend so much time trying to be correct, we lose sight of the 2 great commandments.

[Sudsy]

Not that I know of but scripture does say this - Col 3:17 -

A follow up to that verse I gave above Col 3:17 -

To everyone - what all does your church do in the 'name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' ? Water baptisms ? Baby dedications ? New church memberships ? Other church practises ?

And how do you reconcile this with this Col 3:17 text ?

Is this an either/or situation or a both/and? Just as scripture quotes Jesus as using the triune phraseology of Matt 28, so also does it use the singular terminology of Acts 2. I suggest it was merely a reference to what Jesus said, and not a doctrinal statement that Peter was making on the day of Pentecost, just as we have the name Immanuel recorded in the same passage as the name of Jesus/Yeshua, neither is a stand alone name, but are descriptive names of the Son's mission on earth.
My name is George Lewis Donner, but most people just call me George, some call me Georgie or even G-G or Giggie or...none of them changes who I am or how I relate to others. It is unusual, however for my nicknames (and there are others) to be used in more solemn gatherings.
Could it be said that praying in the "name" of Jesus also implies his relationship with the Father and the actions of the Spirit? Why, we can do things in the name of Jesus without even speaking his name. Think about that?
We spend so much time trying to be correct, we lose sight of the 2 great commandments.

Thanks Brother George. I will

Think about that ?