The Trinity

[Wade]

I appreciate someone mention they didn't really understand the Trinity.

I believe it is something maybe not clearly defined in scripture and therefore can also be term that is a bit confusing especially to the newcomer.

Over time I have come to see that there are attributes that only God possesses but yet some of these are also common to Christ and the Spirit.

I know there are many things I cannot explain and many none of us can explain and so keep in mind we require faith to believe things we can't understand.

However I would love to hear thoughts about understanding the Trinity. Please.

[MaxPC]

Great topic, Wade.

In our church we have the illustration of St Patrick who used the three lobed clover leaf to explain the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as 3 in 1.

[RZehr]

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this as well.

[temporal1]

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this as well.

i'm glad to see this topic on MN. there were some good discussions on MN. some could get a bit contentious. worthwhile reading.

[Josh]

Anabaptists typically did not care much for complex theology, but at the same time saw little value in unseating orthodoxy or thinking that doing so would do much good.

The Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions never gets into the Trinity and merely affirms that God is real, Jesus is God, and that's good enough. That is essentially what I believe as well.

[JimFoxvog]

Jesus is referred to as "Lord" when looking at Old Testament scripture where "LORD" is YHWH. The apostles worshiped him, and Jesus did not rebuke them. So he must also be God. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of God and as Jesus' spirit if I'm recalling correctly. The Spirit is also referred to as having a will. And we know God is one. Whether we have proof that the Spirit is a separate "person" is unclear to me. I don't think the Trinity is a bad hypothesis, but I expect God is more complex than our theology can comprehend

[KingdomBuilder]

Great topic, Wade.

In our church we have the illustration of St Patrick who used the three lobed clover leaf to explain the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as 3 in 1.

How does he explain four leafed clovers? Perhaps poison ivy would be a better illustration

[KingdomBuilder]

I don't think the Trinity is a bad hypothesis, but I expect God is more complex than our theology can comprehend

I'd say I've got similar thoughts. I'm not anti-Trinitarian. I do believe, like you, that this is surely an infinitely complex "web" that we are not really capable of grasping. And I'm okay with that.

[Wade]

Anabaptists typically did not care much for complex theology, but at the same time saw little value in unseating orthodoxy or thinking that doing so would do much good.

The Schleitheim and Dordrecht confessions never gets into the Trinity and merely affirms that God is real, Jesus is God, and that's good enough. That is essentially what I believe as well.

I agree to extent. I do think that there must be some straight forward reasoning possibly we are overlooking for the original Anabaptist's to come to this conclusion rather than accepting what the state churches taught.

One that was helpful for me was how many times in scripture Jesus is referred to as the "Son of God." But yet Who was Jesus's Father? Was it not, "for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." - Matthew 1:20b

So Who was is Father? The Holy Ghost(Spirit) or God?
The only thing that can make sense to me is that God who is Spirit is actually One with the Holy Spirit or should I rather say that the Spirit is One with God...

[Neto]

I just want to emphasize that the doctrine of the trinity & the deity of Jesus should be regarded as two separate issues. I strongly believe that Jesus is God, and have no doubts whatsoever as to whether the whole Scripture, both the OT & NT, represents Jesus as being God. I am not good at remembering references right off, but there are many of the OT messianic prophecies that clearly teach this (like IS 9:6), even referring to him as YHWH (like Jer 23:6). On the old forum there were a couple of members who did not believe in the deity of Jesus, and used an argument against the trinity doctrine in order to push their teaching forward. You can reject (or with-hold judgement on) the doctrine of the trinity w/o rejecting the deity of Jesus.
The Scripture also seems very clear to me, both OT & NT, that there is only one God. But I'm not convinced on the doctrine of the trinity, and never will be, because I've already looked, and there is nothing of the sort in the Bible, and I don't go outside of the Scripture.
I see the Trinity Doctrine as man's way of attempting to explain a mystery, a mystery that God in his wisdom decided to leave unclear. I simply don't know if trinitarians are right or wrong, because it is not in the Scripture. So if they are right, I don't know how right they are, and if they are wrong, how wrong they are. But I do think that it is wrong to go beyond Scripture, so even if they are right about the Trinity, they are wrong to teach it. (Probably sounds a bit crazy, and I try not to make a big deal about it - only when someone uses the weakness of the doctrine of the trinity to try to disprove the deity of Christ.)
Jesus said that he & the Father are 'one'. He also prayed for his followers, that they would be one, as he & the Father are one. If the oneness of the Father & the Son (with the Holy Spirit) is like the doctrine of the trinity explains it, then we cannot be one in the same way that 'they' are. So I think that this doctrine obscures Jesus' meaning, and the teaching about Christian oneness. (And to some extent, this complex doctrinal explanation then 'lets us off the hook' about being one as He & the Father are, because we are no sort of 'godhead'. So in that way, I see this doctrine is harmful.)