Modesty

[Sunbeam]

I guess that is why I hesitate to hold forth with any personal opinion as to what might be appropriate. There is an opinion for every "look"...no a dozen opinions, and I think we have collectively fostered an atmosphere where every man feels a freedom, and perhaps even somewhat of an obligation to critique what any given woman is wearing and decide if it is appropriate or affects him in ways he should not be affected.

I know a man who thinks it is suggestive for women to be seen without hosiery.
And one who thinks a woman should not wear red.
I just recently encountered someone who thought sewing darts in a cape was provocative, something nearly every cape-wearing Mennonite woman does.
Someone here says a shirt knotted at the waist is suggestive and another says a shirt hanging loosely would be a problem for him.
I had a friend whose dad would not allow her to sew her dresses with buttons opening down the front. There is a church near us that requires the ladies to sew their dresses with buttons down the front.
I know of a situation where a man saw a lady standing in the light of a doorway, saw the outline in her arm in her sleeve and went and talked to her about it. She took her dress apart and lined her sleeves.

I have this burden... I think we have in our quest for biblical application for propriety in dress, unwittingly created an atmosphere where every man feels a freedom, and perhaps even an obligation to size up what any given woman is wearing to discern whether it is modest or not, or affects him in ways he should not be affected.

Is this healthy or wholesome?
From my own perspective it feels heavy and a bit unfair, like we must juggle everything we hear about how a man might be affected by this or that and incorporate it all into our clothing choices.

Is this where God wants us to be? I ask this honestly and humbly and with a heart that truly wishes to hear the Father's heart here.

I read a book once of a man who went to a primitive tribe to teach them about Jesus (Nate Saint's son). The people often wore no clothes at all. It was interesting to me to read how that experience of moving his family into that jungle and ministering to those people shaped his perspective on clothes. And no, he was not saying clothes are not important.

What I am asking is, is there a reality here that we may be ignoring...that God made men to be attracted to women physically and that is not a
phenomenon that is wrong, of itself, or that a woman should be responsible to squelch?

Again, I am not in any way arguing for indiscreet clothing, but perhaps for a shift in focus and a taking on of personal responsibility on man's part? I hope it is not out of line for me to ask.

[Signtist]

[wesleyb]

Good post Sunbeam. Growing up in a moderate conservative church I often heard pronouncements in the form of: “when society around us sees us wearing (some type of clothing/hairstyle) they think (something)”. As I got older and rubbed shoulders with lots of different people I found that these pronouncements, which of course always defended the Mennonite status quo, were not always accurate. Sometimes our appearance had the desired effect, sometimes just the opposite. And sometimes things that were a big deal in the church went totally unnoticed outside. Part of the problem is seeing the culture around us as monolithic. If we’re going to encourage people of diverse backgrounds to join our churches, we have to realize that requiring uniform clothing styles means that not all of us will be sending the same message to our friends and acquaintances. Sorry if this is slightly off topic. Just my thoughts right now.

[steve-in-kville]

Again, I am not in any way arguing for indiscreet clothing, but perhaps for a shift in focus and a taking on of personal responsibility on man's part? I hope it is not out of line for me to ask.

Very good post that needed to be said.

I think there is a balance, too. We can over-think this whole process, which often happens. I think that respect needs to be taught to our boys... to respect girls. But it can be over-cooked as well.

This is a bit off topic, but will illustrate my point: We were once part of a Mennonite church that had a minister... every sermon he preached , no matter the scripture, no matter the topic, always ended up being about sex in the end. It was a red flag for sure!

We later learned, after we left that church, that there was an unusually high ratio of incest, porn and deviant sexual sin going on within the congregation. No wonder! Sunday after Sunday he drilled the topic into everyone's head! What are our young men to think??

[JimFoxvog]

Again, I am not in any way arguing for indiscreet clothing, but perhaps for a shift in focus and a taking on of personal responsibility on man's part? I hope it is not out of line for me to ask.

Exactly. The "she stumbled me" type stuff that I've heard from some people (not accusing anyone here) is just rejection one's own responsibility for one's own sin.

[bible]Matt 15,19[/bible]

[Neto]

I hope that I did not seem to imply that I thought that women/girls were responsible for my thought life. This girl asked me, and I told her. I think that there is a difference between telling someone who is asking - who is wanting to be helpful, and telling someone who is NOT asking, to impose it on them, really.

[Sunbeam]

I really don't want or mean to indict anyone here or anywhere. I just want us to look at ourselves and see whether we're lining up well with Scripture and the heart of God. Ladies and men alike.

P. S.
And I just saw that my post up there had a whole section repeated. I did something dumbish, somehow. Please disregard the redundancy.

[Josh]

I have this burden... I think we have in our quest for biblical application for propriety in dress, unwittingly created an atmosphere where every man feels a freedom, and perhaps even an obligation to size up what any given woman is wearing to discern whether it is modest or not, or affects him in ways he should not be affected.

I guess it’s hard for me to relate to this because I sure don’t feel that “freedom”. I feel like Jesus ate with sinners and prostitutes and I expect the same of myself.

With that said, clothing that expresses vanity is not good, and a culture where all women feel the freedom to be wearing yoga pants, short-shorts, and so on is not good. Any commentary that this isn’t good gets reacted to with “Women have a right to dress how they’re want and it’s men’s problem not to look.” That’s basically the only alternative to the conservative Anabaptist or other conservative Holiness etc. kind of standard.

[steve-in-kville]

This thread has been both enjoyable to read, and yet frustrating, both at the same time.

We're over-thinking this. Your salvation is not in your clothes. Its not based on cape dresses that have darts (whatever that is). Its not about length of your skirt, t-shirts or wearing (or not wearing) pants.

Your day to day relationship with Christ is where its at. Period.

Our family was part of a fellowship years ago where it was all about clothes. There was a "race" to see who could be the "plainest." Who's vehicle was the blackest. Who's beard was the longest. Who's covering was the biggest. It was out of control. Your clothes aren't gonna save you.

[Sunbeam]

No they are certainly not. But I really do not hear participants here saying they are, or speaking out of that belief.

Our salvation puts in our hearts a desire to follow Jesus, and to conduct our lives in a way that reflects love and respect for our fellowman.
I will not deny that collectively we have lost balance a little, and may have tottered into the ditch....some on one side, some on another....and maybe some into the great blue sea....