Non-plain Anabaptists / Mennonites

[Bootstrap]

Please post in this thread only if you consider yourself a non-plain Anabaptist or Mennonite (even if the church you are currently attending carries a different label).

I want to explore some posts about non-plain Anabaptists, and how similar / different we are to our plain cousins. I will follow this post with a few taken from a related thread for plain Mennos.

[Bootstrap]

Please define "Conservative Anabaptist" in the context of your question.
[What I think you mean: Members of Swiss Brethren groups that wear "conservative clothing" as an expression of their church standards. (Also known as "Plain People".)]
[What you might mean: Members of congregations whose view of Christian life is shaped by the same approach to the Scriptures as that of the Christians of the Reformation period often referred to as "anabaptists".]

I usually use the term Conservative Anabaptist to refer to plain Anabaptists - the first definition.

I think that many non-plain Mennonites and Anabaptists fit your second definition, and that's where we have quite a bit in common, even if we look different and disagree on some issues where we have strong feelings. Of course, early Anabaptists were somewhat diverse, and they came to different conclusions, just like we do today, but their conclusions generally rhymed.

I think that the liberation theology wing of MC-USA takes a very different approach to Scripture than the early Anabaptists. That's not the wing I'm in.

[Bootstrap]

I'd like to keep this as a thread for the non-plain, but I'd also like to explore some things that Wade said in the other thread.

Conservative Anabaptist's to me just hold more closely to the original Anabaptist's than any others and this is a bit of what the name means to me.

I'm not sure that's true. I think that a lot of non-plain Anabaptists agree with most of what is on your list, and I don't think that the original Anabaptists held to the ones where we differ.

I agree with all of the following - I would interpret some of these a little differently than our plain brethren, and suspect the early Anabaptists would have too.

Distinctive Beliefs of the Anabaptists
- As committed followers of Christ they believed in repentance and salvation was made available only through His death and resurrection.
- With a Christ- centered view they took His Word(the Holy Scriptures) literally and practiced obedience in everyday practical ways. Having Him both Saviour and Lord. Faith and obedience accompanying one another.
- They believed in voluntary church and so rejected infant baptism but rather believers baptism. And with that a missionary zeal in sharing the gospel with others.
- They believed all men are sinful and in need of Christ’s atonement, and with this came a completely devoted life to Him – discipleship. And they did not believe one could live under deliberate sin and still be in God’s grace.
- They believed the church is the body of Christ here on earth and individualism shouldn’t exist in the believing community.
- They believed in the churches ability to have authority and regulate itself and to be pure.
- The church is a sharing spiritual brotherhood where again membership is voluntary, where water baptism unites the believer with the body and brotherhood.
- They believed that any earthly government is distinct and a separate entity from God’s heavenly kingdom.
- They believed and practiced non-resistance -Christ law of love and peace. So they wouldn’t take up arms, use self defense, or passive force.
- They saw ordinances as symbolic spiritual experiences. Not all of these were practiced immediately but the seven ordinances are: Baptism, Communion, Feet washing, Christian woman veiling, Christian salutation, Marriage (not all to be married but that marriage was to be an example of Christ’s exclusiveness in relationship to the Christ(so no divorce and remarriage), Anointing with oil,
- They believed in non-conformity to the world but being conformed to Christ. Plain clothing and no costly attire. Johannes Kessler of ST. Gall said, “Their life was irreproachable. They shunned costly clothing. Their walk and conversation were quite humble.”

Here are the main distinctions I see. I don't really want to debate these points with the plain Mennos - hence the separate thread - but I do want to be clear about where we agree and disagree.

I don't think the early Anabaptists wore distinctive clothing. I don't think simple clothing needs to be uniform or to stand out. I don't think you could pick out an early Anabaptist or an early Christian from a crowd of people wearing modest everyday clothing.

I agree that divorce should not be allowed, but if your spouse divorces you, I think there are circumstances where remarriage is allowed. This is what GAMEO says Michael Sattler taught (http://gameo.org/index.php?title=Divorce_and_Remarriage).

I'm not quite sure how to measure "individualism shouldn't exist". I think individuals do exist, and the Bible tells us they have distinct gifts and callings. I think the Bible teaches us that community and unity should exist, but you still have eyes and ears and hands and feet, which do not all look and act the same. I think the Bible clearly tells us to build community, but I'm not convinced that it tells us to stop being individuals. Sure, there is no male or female in Christ, but men and women still exist, and each contributes important things that the other cannot. There is no Jew nor Greek in Christ, but each culture was better prepared to grasp different understandings of the Gospel, and much of the New Testament was built on the story of these two groups working out their differences to build community. There is no slave nor free in Christ, but there were most certainly slaves and free, which led to the book of Philemon.

On the whole, I see more similarities than differences. But I suspect that we look more different than similar to some plain Anabaptists.

[Neto]

Conservative Anabaptist's to me just hold more closely to the original Anabaptist's than any others and this is a bit of what the name means to me.

I'm not sure that's true. I think that a lot of non-plain Anabaptists agree with most of what is on your list, and I don't think that the original Anabaptists held to the ones where we differ.
....

I used to consider myself (& our congregation) to be 'Plain" but not so much anymore. I haven't changed, but the congregation has, and maybe I never qualified, because although I wore a straight cut until the congregation removed that from the guidelines (I would have kept on with it, and did for a while, but my wife wanted me to get a laydown suit. Now I almost never wear a suit at all.), it was never a conviction for me. I did it because I felt that it was worth making some 'concessions' for the sake of being a part of the congregation, knowing that if I was not inconvenienced in some way by the congregational guidelines, neither would my human nature be 'inconvenienced'. All of this is just to explain why I'm posting in this discussion.

So anyway, I don't think that the "Plain People" are the best example of the early anabaptists, nor would I say they are closer than others. I agree with Boot's later comments, when he states that while they wore simple clothing, it was not distinctive, nor could they be recognized by their clothing choices. In fact, this is how I understand Menno Simon's comment about wearing a sword while traveling - it was as a sort of disguise.

To me, anabaptism means being Biblicists, following Christ according to what we can know from the Scripture. I think if someone could talk with one of those early anabaptists, and asked them what they think about stuff like braoadfalls and straightcuts (in the context of congregational guidelines, or as a spiritual expression), they would say something to the effect that they don't think about those things at all, because there is nothing about that in the Scripture. I don't mean to say that you SHOULDN'T wear clothing like that, I'm just saying that it is not a part of a true definition of what those people were like in the spiritual sense.

[Josh]

I will wear the mantle of dual affiliation in order to participate in this post, and I am in a similar position to Nero anyway (formerly Plain congregation transitioning to non-plain).

- They saw ordinances as symbolic spiritual experiences. Not all of these were practiced immediately but the seven ordinances are: Baptism, Communion, Feet washing, Christian woman veiling, Christian salutation, Marriage (not all to be married but that marriage was to be an example of Christ’s exclusiveness in relationship to the Christ(so no divorce and remarriage), Anointing with oil,
- They believed in non-conformity to the world but being conformed to Christ. Plain clothing and no costly attire. Johannes Kessler of ST. Gall said, “Their life was irreproachable. They shunned costly clothing. Their walk and conversation were quite humble.”

Whilst I am a strong believer that the above things are good, I don't find any evidence for some of these things amongst early non-resistant (post Münster) Anabaptists:

- Women's veiling as a distinctive practice - rather, it was a common part of all women's garb at the time

- Early Anabaptists didn't have a concept of seven ordinances, although a few of them are present in early confessions

- Early Anabaptists didn't have a strict no divorce and remarriage view, based on reading Menno Simons' and Michael Sattler's views of the topic.

- There doesn't seem to be any emphasis on explicitly nonconformed attire, although there does seem to be on simplicity in life in general including attire

[Josh]

Now I want to add something I saw in early Anabaptism absent from Wade's list, which is a strong emphasis on exclusion from those who become apostate. The concept of the ban is emphasised in the Dordrecht and Schleitheim confessions.

A. O. Green had a good article on this unfortunately not available online on the topic of "Absonderung", or separation. Do modern non plain Anabaptists embrace this today? I'm not sure.

[JimFoxvog]

I'm a non "Plain" Anabaptist. Maybe pretty "plain" though, as in simple.

I really like the Confession of Faith in an Anabaptist Perspective. I officially became a Mennonite about 15 years ago, although I've appreciated this faith approach much longer.

I believe Scripture is to be authoritative in our lives. I am sympathetic to some of liberation theology, looking at scripture from the perspective of the poor and oppressed, but part ways with it when it seems to overrule scripture, for example how some apply it to various sexual issues.

Love is the first command. This includes love of enemy -- no war, death penalty. This includes love of neighbor -- health care, equal rights, but no abortion. This includes care for creation -- hurting the environment hurts people, as well as dishonors the Creator.

As I mentioned elsewhere recently, I am all for non-conformity, both with the world and for celebrating diversity within the church. I welcome contrasting opinions and the respectful discussion of the contrasts.

On clothing, I'm radical. The ultimate in simplicity is clothing-free, which I believe best honors God's creation and original purpose (and has some early Anabaptist precedent). Where that's inappropriate, freedom and diversity are great. Wearing the ethnic clothing of all parts of the world, cape dresses, prayer kapps, broadfalls, burkas for those who really want them (although I suspect it is usually male-coerced on women), topfree equality, skirts for men as well as women, all can be part of the mix. But NOT expensive clothes and jewellery -- I think modesty is a proper Christian value. Natural is good; I also dislike tattoos, makeup and shaving. But I appreciate those who use clothing as an artistic expression. I personally would like to see women wearing headcoverings -- at least while taking leadership roles in worship, which is how I interpret the "pray or prophesy".

I think it is my responsibility to vote, as part of the command to "honor the emperor", the ruling government. But we don't put our faith in government, and expect evil to flow from the evil that is in power. I'm more comfortable with non-violent popular movements, such as "Occupy". I don't like paying for the violence of government, but am not completely convinced of tax resistance. My family chooses to stay below the taxable income for income tax, which also helps encourage simplicity.

[Neto]

I will wear the mantle of dual affiliation in order to participate in this post, and I am in a similar position to Nero anyway (formerly Plain congregation transitioning to non-plain).
....

-Neto

[ken_sylvania]

I will wear the mantle of dual affiliation in order to participate in this post, and I am in a similar position to Nero anyway (formerly Plain congregation transitioning to non-plain).
....

-Neto

Now you know how he feels about you!

[Bootstrap]

MCUSA, in my opinion, has much more in common with evangelical churches than with conservative anabaptist churches. I feel like literally the only thing we have in common is the name Mennonite.

I don't think MCUSA has much at all in common with evangelical churches. CMC, BMA, AMEC, and LMC do, but MCUSA seems to have more in common these days with mainline protestant churches than with evangelicals.

I agree.

And there is very much a split between the "simple obedience" wing of MC-USA and the "liberation theology" wing. I am in the "simple obedience" wing.

I forget which church you are a part of now, but it appears to me that you are more comfortable crossing from MCUSA? to where you are now attending, instead of swimming upstream to a conservative Mennonite church.

There isn't one here, and I very much want to be part of a local church. I see very significant strengths and weaknesses in the church I am attending, I'm not sure "comfortable" describes how I feel here. I still do the men's lunch with the Mennonite church.

I sent my daughters to a CMC summer camp, which I rather liked, and I have enjoyed visiting a couple of CMC congregations. The first CMC congregation I visited, many years before that, was not as good a fit. If Buckhorn CMC or Ebenezer CMC were here where I live, I might well join a CMC church, if my wife were comfortable with that.