Profiling, Races & Racism in America (SPLIT from Freedoms...)

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Post Reply
joshuabgood
Posts: 2845
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:23 pm
Affiliation: BMA

Profiling, Races & Racism in America (SPLIT from Freedoms...)

Post by joshuabgood »

Josh wrote:Since most of us are white middle class Americans, I’m not sure how exactly we can identify as “others”, or why we even should - other ethnic groups have all engaged in their own styles of oppression and exploitation too.
Maybe you should ask them? What should we do as white Christians to support and identify with marginalized (here in the west) people groups? And then listen to their answer with an mind to learn rather than argue.

Sure, all groups have engaged in exploitation...but we have good news that loving others is better than hating them. And we have benefited in this case from the military oppression of white Europeans. That is all...
0 x
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 24572
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by Josh »

joshuabgood wrote:
Josh wrote:Since most of us are white middle class Americans, I’m not sure how exactly we can identify as “others”, or why we even should - other ethnic groups have all engaged in their own styles of oppression and exploitation too.
Maybe you should ask them? What should we do as white Christians to support and identify with marginalized (here in the west) people groups? And then listen to their answer with an mind to learn rather than argue.

Sure, all groups have engaged in exploitation...but we have good news that loving others is better than hating them. And we have benefited in this case from the military oppression of white Europeans. That is all...
“Maybe we should ask them” makes the assumption that all “oppressed” people groups have some sort of spokesperson and that they all generally think and desire the same thing. I tend to view people as individuals, not members of a larger group.

Foucault always viewed everything in terms of oppressor and oppressed, but I think that’s a very faulty worldview.
0 x
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by PeterG »

Ernie wrote:
Jennifer wrote:My question is if anabaptists seriously believe in non resistance and not oppressing or murdering or stealing, why did they come to a country that was killing and murdering and stealing, in order to acquire land and wealth. It seems as if there's a contradiction somewhere in there.
Anabaptists moved to Pennsylvania and settled on land that was purchased from the Indians. For the first 50 years, Indians felt like they got the long end of the deal as William Penn did a "walking purchase" in which he walked leisurely and then called off the walk after a day and half, (when the deal was that he could walk for three days).
William Penn was one of the very few true heroes of American history. How different our country could be if his example had been more widely followed...

More problematic was the movement of Anabaptists into the Midwest in the 19th century. In that case they often were occupying land recently taken from Native Americans by force. I'm not sure what there is to do about it now other than acknowledge the injustice and, as JBG suggested, listen for ways to support the marginalized.
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 24572
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by Josh »

PeterG, and many of those Native Americans (or First Nations peoples) in turn acquired that land by force from a different Native American people. Nobody anywhere on earth really has “clear title” to land if use of force in the past is taken as disqualifying.
0 x
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by PeterG »

Josh wrote:“Maybe we should ask them” makes the assumption that all “oppressed” people groups have some sort of spokesperson and that they all generally think and desire the same thing.
No, it does not. It's "ask them," not "ask the spokesperson." Sure, we'll get lots of different answers, and we can learn from them. Maybe a pattern will emerge, or maybe not. If nothing else, we can learn how to support each individual better.
Josh wrote:I tend to view people as individuals, not members of a larger group.
This is commendable in many ways, but there are limits. In recent posts you yourself have said things like "most of us are white middle class Americans" and spoken of "other ethnic groups."
Josh wrote:Foucault always viewed everything in terms of oppressor and oppressed, but I think that’s a very faulty worldview.
It is. We should not "always view everything" in this way, but some things really are about oppression. It is only reasonable and right to think of those things in those terms.
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by PeterG »

Josh wrote:PeterG, and many of those Native Americans (or First Nations peoples) in turn acquired that land by force from a different Native American people. Nobody anywhere on earth really has “clear title” to land if use of force in the past is taken as disqualifying.
Correct. And neither is it justifiable to steal that which has been stolen. It's all bad.
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
Jennifer
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 9:16 pm
Affiliation: JW

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by Jennifer »

In my opinion for anyone in this day and age to say they are oppressed in America because of their race or ethnicity is rediculous. Everyone has the same opportunity if they choose to take it. I think that any group claiming to be oppressed because of ethnicity or race is trying to get special treatment. And that's wrong. No one from the white middle class is going into predominantly black or Hispanic schools to keep those children from learning. It's the attitude and culture that exists in many of those neighborhoods that are holding those children back from the opportunities that the rest of us have. There are also many whites living in poverty today not because of their race, but because of their parents attitude and beliefs. Almost every group that has ever come to this country was discriminated against at one time or another. But they all eventually assimilated. It's up to them to assimilate or not to. And if they choose to stay separate and complain about it, it's their own fault. The Amish choose to remain separate. But because of their strong work ethics and religious beliefs, they do just fine.
0 x
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14674
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by Bootstrap »

Ideally, this shouldn't be a discussion among whites who have access to the Internet. We should go to people who feel they do not have equal opportunity, listen with compassion - without insisting on correcting them, and try to understand why.

To be blunt, I see some people trying to shout them down instead. We can speak out of our experience, we can't speak out of theirs.

I can't speak for them, the best thing to do is go find them and listen, without judging, without correcting them, to try to understand what they are saying and why. But let me try: I don't think everybody has equal opportunity until we have equally good schools, equally good policing, and equal treatment from police. Also, when people mess up, I think there is well-documented evidence that there is more grace in our legal system for white males than for black males, and for better-educated people than less educated people, and that means their opportunity is not equal.

I student taught in inner city Flint. Joshua teaches in New York City. Mike and I have each done prison ministry - I think that his perspective may be different than mine, I'm not sure. But I'd be interested in hearing more from people who have served in these settings.

Cell phone coverage has shown some real issues in the way some people are treated by police.

I also think the way people speak of specific ethnic groups matters - and some of our politicians have been harnessing negative feelings about refugees, immigrants, Mexicans, Muslims, etc. in ways that affect how people view and treat them.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by PeterG »

Jennifer wrote:In my opinion for anyone in this day and age to say they are oppressed in America because of their race or ethnicity is rediculous. Everyone has the same opportunity if they choose to take it. I think that any group claiming to be oppressed because of ethnicity or race is trying to get special treatment. And that's wrong. No one from the white middle class is going into predominantly black or Hispanic schools to keep those children from learning. It's the attitude and culture that exists in many of those neighborhoods that are holding those children back from the opportunities that the rest of us have. There are also many whites living in poverty today not because of their race, but because of their parents attitude and beliefs. Almost every group that has ever come to this country was discriminated against at one time or another. But they all eventually assimilated. It's up to them to assimilate or not to. And if they choose to stay separate and complain about it, it's their own fault. The Amish choose to remain separate. But because of their strong work ethics and religious beliefs, they do just fine.
We can be thankful that overt racism has been significantly diminished in our society. (I don't think racism and similar forms of prejudice can ever be fully eradicated from any society this side of Christ's return. "Us" vs. "them" is an intrinsic feature of fallen human nature.) But racism often lurks in our sinful hearts beneath the surface, and there's good evidence that centuries of overt racism created a societal structure that continues to unfairly disadvantage some people. In this article John Piper explains why this is only to be expected.
John Piper wrote:It would be inconceivable and utterly astonishing if there were no such thing as structural racism. In this world of sin and Satan and a decadent world system, it is incomprehensible that one sin would be privileged to escape systemic expression. This is true not only for statistical reasons, but for organic ones. Racism is the spoiled child of pride. And structural racism is the sturdy child of structural pride. They are organically connected. Pride gives birth to racism. Structural pride gives birth to structural racism.
Until relatively recently, intentional and systematic attempts to deny opportunities to racial minorities were widespread. It is to be expected that the consequences will persist. Similar effects are seen among white Americans who lacked opportunities for non-racial reasons. True, these obstacles can be overcome by making good choices. But people with a relative lack of opportunities often face increased temptation to make bad choices and more severe consequences for bad choices. For example, a person who is arrested and cannot afford to post bail is highly likely to be jailed until trial, as a consequence loosing his job and perhaps his home even if the legal penalty for his crime is only probation. A wealthier person arrested for the same crime can simply post bail, serve his probation, and move on with life.

One specific example of the ways in which some people are unjustly treated because of their race is in the racial disparities in the workings of the criminal justice system. This article from Prison Fellowship details one of them.
According to the report, in the past five years New Jersey prosecutors asked judges to try 1,251 youth as adults. Of that number, 87.6 percent were black or Hispanic. Of the 1,251 requests, over half—692 to be exact—were granted by judges.

According to Laura Cohen, the director of the Criminal and Youth Justice Clinic at Rutgers Law School, Caucasian youth commit the same ‘waivable’ offenses as black youth, but prosecutors don’t send as many requests to judges for them.

She says: “Controlling for nature of offense, controlling for family background, controlling for educational history—all of the things that go into a prosecutor’s decision, there are still disparities, significant disparities, that cannot be explained by anything other than race.”

While there are safeguards in place to, at some level, protect youth (like housing juveniles in separate units) from older populations where they are often further tutored in criminal behavior, being tried as an adult means kids get saddled with “permanent, adult records and adult sentences.”
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
Jennifer
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 9:16 pm
Affiliation: JW

Re: The freedoms we enjoy because of those who sacrificed their lives

Post by Jennifer »

I've never known any white people to discriminate against a person because of a person's color or ethnicity. Anyone who owns a business wants to hire someone who is the best qualified and who is willing to work hard and gets the job done. And someone who can get along with the public and has a good attitude. What I do see are people with a strong work ethic and Christian values discriminating against those who have a bad attitude toward those who have worked hard and struggled to get ahead and have succeeded in life, and against those who are untrustworthy and blame their lack of success on racism. Immigrants come to this country every day from all over the world because of the opportunity that is available here. You don't see the prisons filled with Asians. Why, because they don't have a attitude of entitlement. They know that there are opportunities here for everyone if they are willing to work. And as long as there are those of a liberal mindset that are willing to perpetuate the lie that racism is the cause of the majority of those in prison being black, then that racism and violence against whites and other groups will continue. It's liberals who are helping to instill and maintain hostility and violence toward those who just want to work and support their families. Those who want to commit violent acts against others should be in prison. And perhaps those who continue to incite racially motivated violence should go to prison with them. Then they can experience the fruits of what they've sewn first hand.
0 x
Post Reply