Discerning "why" Seekers come

[Wade]

*SNIP*

I've been among Anabaptist Seekers for over 30 years now, having been one myself, and I've noticed that many seekers are drawn to plain Anabaptism for reasons that are not faith-based...and we Anabaptists aren't always good at discerning this fact. We want to see what we are doing in terms of spiritual obedience, and thus we attribute spiritual motives to seekers who come to us...when often these folks have non-spiritual motives.

*SNIP*

Perhaps a second solemn warning here is that we plain folks need to continually seek to discern the "why" behind what draws people to us - even if they learn to say the right things. This certainly shouldn't affect the welcome they receive, but it does affect how we minister to folks and move them deeper into relationship with Christ and his Kingdom.

These comments caught my attention and confused me...

Maybe my experience with different conservative Mennonite denominations is very off so please forgive me if this isn't accurate as a whole.
However my overall impression is that us newcomers are always guilty until proven innocent.
Meanwhile if a ethnic Mennonite switches church to some other Mennonite group it seems they are always innocent until proven guilty...

You don't have to worry about me saying the right things...

I agree with the obedience part in the sense that ethnic Mennonites are raised with a very good understanding of what is needed for them to be accepted.
Us newcomers came to many similar convictions because of scripture and hopefully mainly because of the Spirit too but we can and do fail in understanding some things in regards to obedience. I do not intend leave excuse for disobedience in saying this.

You see for you that are in a Conservative Anabaptist church and a newcomer and/or newcomer with family comes it is very hard on you because you pour so much into helping ministering and loving these people. When we leave it is heartbreaking as you desire to reach out to others and live for doing such.

But just consider, for us we have potentially abandoned all our family, job, home, among other things to live for Christ and are looking for others to share that with, in honour and service to our King. We have already lost everything over and above what you lose in helping a newcomer. If we leave we are actually now loosing our church family too...

So my question is by having that attitude of trying and discerning the spirits do you really think it is working?

One thing is certain; we don't come because we think we are good enough or deserve to be part of the church but nor did we come to be held at arms length for times of proving. Suggesting building barriers and/or suspicion is how you just keep encouraging newcomers to leave and therefore you are actually pushing them from that opportunity of healing and ministering to them.

Who needs to have the most patience? The new immature loner that is withheld opportunity to even partake or the mature group of people that are accepted looking on?

Right off the start is service encouraged by this way of doing things?

And what do you suggest for us newcomers?

[temporal1]

Wade,
again, somehow, you find good observations and questions.
from what i’ve read over time on this forum, i believe others would wonder similarly.
(i think) the central reality is, fellowships and communities vary so much, expectations of we newcomers should be to attempt to discern (as quickly as possible) how any particular group functions.

there is no replacement for experience, learning requires time+effort.
true in all aspects of life.

is this fellowship open to new folks? - are they self-sufficient+satisfied with their status quo?
i believe (at least both) exist, likely, with lots of variations.

here’s an opposite observation to consider.
(i have not read about this recently on forum, but, it was discussed now+then in prior years.)

some who are born into Anabaptist groups witness abundant grace granted to “others,” even enemies, or evil-doers .. but find they, as MB’s are held to a higher standard, even punished or shunned, when they would have really appreciated a measure of grace freely given others.

while there may be benefits to being born into the life, there can also be some extra burdens.

i hope Dan sees your questions, i’m sure he will respond.
(i believe) his words above were “thinking out loud words,” in response to the tragic M Hari incident. that situation is shocking+upsetting, fortunately, rare. naturally, it trips questions about “how to prevent?”

sadly, there are some “cultural” Anabaptists who have gone off in deep ditches, too.
i try not to think of these cases, they are disturbing+destructive, but, they happen. from my view, the M Hari situation is not completely different from these. grave sin is grave sin.

i am speaking as another interested newcomer, not intending to speak for Dan, at all!

my intent is only to encourage your thoughts and questions, which i find specially helpful, and, believe they could be helpful to others with similar questions/experiences. to assure you, you are not “the only one” with questions.

[Wade]

I don't really know much about Micheal Hari except a few things said on MN so I don't see a complete picture.
What I have seen is when newcomers leave and falter it is opportunity to point out they were of the wrong spirit or not faith-based. Don't Mennonites object complete to the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved? Maybe Micheal did come in faith but fell away or maybe he didn't come in faith?
The point is I hear time and time again it was the newcomers fault and not as often hear Mennonites saying that the church could of done a better job or that we missed our opportunity to minister better to those people.
The different heart attitude of just saying it was someone else's fault or disobedience is not one of service but isn't it one of building bigger walls against those that aren't sincere but also hugely hindering those that are?

[Heirbyadoption]

Wade, I get the impression (and I could be totally wrong) that you and Dan aren't quite talking about the same thing. Perhaps he can come back and clarify for us.

[Ernie]

Maybe my experience with different conservative Mennonite denominations is very off so please forgive me if this isn't accurate as a whole.
However my overall impression is that us newcomers are always guilty until proven innocent.

Wade, various ones on MN have been trying to assure you that you have not had a very broad exposure to the conservative Anabaptist world. I think your experience in the east was very unfortunate. Experiences like yours are not the norm although they happen too often. I know of many conservative Anabaptist churches where you would be innocent until proven guilty.

[Hats Off]

Wade, I will try to have more comments later; for now it is enough that we are looking at both you and Michael in hindsight and the picture is completely different. I know little of Michael's journey but what I do know is we see a continuation of radical moves. I know little of your journey to date but you, aside from moving across the country, have continued with consistent conservative moves. I don't recall having heard that you have placed a bid on building the border wall with Mexico.

[LJones]

Wade,

I don't know your story, but I do know Michael's story as well as anyone on here, probably better. Dan's comments about Michael always having to be a radical and always having to push the envelope are correct. He definitely needed scrutiny. He lived "horse and buggy" in a non horse and buggy group. He always chose to live a good distance away from any church, hence staying away from prying eyes. Instead of just joining a communal group, such as the Hutterites or even Barton Creek, he chose to start his own with nuances.

I will not tear down Michael in totality, but I will tell you that looking back there were always signs of conflicting actions all along. One example is that Michael would pretend that he didn't have anything to do with the internet. He was adamant that he was not involved and had others do his computing for him. One night we stayed at the same hotel. I got up and went to check my email and Michael had been down there and left several levels of his email and other logins open. When we got to the truck I just simply said, "you may not want to leave your logins active if you use a hotel computer." He proceeded to give excuses. This happened over and over and over. That is a big part of the reason my relationship with Michael ended in turmoil and disagreement. The church was aware of this and SHOULD HAVE asked questions all along. After all, they had good reason.

My story of leaving Anabaptism was full of a bunch of junk. Looking back I was treated as fair as you could expect from humans. However, looking back, my own actions were probably full of offense toward Mennonites and German Baptists. Time gives perspective I guess.

[Soloist]

The point is I hear time and time again it was the newcomers fault and not as often hear Mennonites saying that the church could of done a better job or that we missed our opportunity to minister better to those people.
The different heart attitude of just saying it was someone else's fault or disobedience is not one of service but isn't it one of building bigger walls against those that aren't sincere but also hugely hindering those that are?

My experience related to this was a sad one. For whatever reason I seem to hear a lot of stuff, but in this case it was a sad cry of what did we not do? Pain was felt and dismay at the bad words spoken about the church. Was there misunderstandings? to be sure, I've had my share too.
A great deal of hurt was felt over the friendships formed and destroyed a year or so later. People tried reaching out and ministering to help the situations, but it failed.

My concern is that we (including me) care entirely too much about ourselves and are only to happy to break away from things we see as wrong with little regard to those we fellowshipped with. I've had hurt and misunderstanding too, and generally we clarified it and worked through the confusion. Some of it was coming to an understanding that they really don't know the answer sometimes.

[temporal1]

Wade!
much good is coming from your questions.
each response is sincere, and adds a bit more fullness to the picture.

add to that, this forum is public, there is no knowing who may also benefit.

you know, many people do not write at all. with the internet, the perception is opposite!
in reality, many do not care to write, others do not read.
more specific to this forum, there are those who read-only, because of personal convictions, fellowship rules, etc., they refrain.

your questions are fair.
“better to light a candle, than to stumble in darkness.”

i agree with others, there are 2 problems here.
one is how to identify and respond effectively to potential grave sin;
the other is how to begin healthy new fellowship relationships, both, the adjustment period of being a new seeker, AND, effectively receiving new seekers.

with all beginning relationships, there is a “getting to know you” process,
after, it becomes more, how to maintain and thrive in those relationship.

example. how did you and your dear wife meet, and begin? ..
i do not know, but, frequently, the early days are .. awkward.

years ago, we received some “inside tips” on relationships (from our beloved pastor.)
occasionally, within sermons, he would describe how all our many human relationships represent the most challenging parts of our lives. when Jesus commanded, in Matthew 22:

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

He knew this was not “the easy way!” .. He offers The Way.

our lives are living exercises in how we attempt to live out His commandments.
adding to the fascination, it’s not based on the given role in any relationship.

a janitor can minister to his CEO. authentic faith is the great equalizer!
it can’t be purchased with any amount of gold, while the most humble in earthly circumstances can rest in it. this is not human reasoning!

easy to recite His words. hard to obey.

[Soloist]

example. how did you and your dear wife meet, and begin? ..
i do not know, but, frequently, the early days are .. awkward.

my wife was wanting to be a pastor so I looked up all the verses on females in positions of teaching in the Bible and gave it to her. Our next encounter was getting stabbed by the paramedic students together for IV practice.