Mennonites And Guns And Society

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Josh
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Josh »

The Holdeman position is that we do not concealed carry or get permits to do so and we do not own handguns. This is mostly based on instruction from Selective Service concerning a future draft.

Owning a lot of firearms especially with a military style appearance could cause spiritual concern.

We do not believe we need to agitate the government to regulate against such things - just like we don’t need think government needs to outlaw clothing with an immodest appearance. We just don’t use it ourselves.
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MaxPC
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by MaxPC »

Josh wrote:
We do not believe we need to agitate the government to regulate against such things - just like we don’t need think government needs to outlaw clothing with an immodest appearance. We just don’t use it ourselves.
:up:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Sudsy
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Sudsy »

MaxPC wrote:No reason to "duck", Sudsy :lol:

Personally I've considered the following aspects of this topic:
Jesus didn't preach against hunting, he did preach love of God and neighbor. He did come "eating and drinking" and we know he did eat meat at Passover and other Jewish celebrations. There were no hunting guns in Jesus' day. There were weapons however, both for hunting and for war. He didn't preach against hunting; Jesus did preach love and by extrapolation of that love, peace with our fellow man. He didn't preach against weapons. He preached how our attitudes towards our neighbor and God are the root of our discipleship.
Agree. I think there are varying ways in our orthopraxy that is more important to one believer than it is another and this is where I think Romans 14 comes into play. (And some may be saying, here we go again using Romans 14 to get us off the hook). My dis-interest in hunting any longer came not only from my acknowledgment that I was mainly into hunting from a trophy/ego aspect but also from a change of perspective on taking away life from what God has created when I didn't need to. Other believers I know will still eat meat but only from what they view as a more ethical treatment of those animals before they are slaughtered (i.e. 'free range' chickens) Still others go vegan and keep away from all meat and related animal products. I think in these areas we are to step aside and allow our conscience to do it's thing as unto the Lord. I guess this is one reason why I can't be labelled a CA.

I have the same view on modesty and simple/plain living. Am I more 'spiritually mature' in my practise ? No, and I might be more spiritually immature. We can become the judges of other's Christian practise and where it is not clearly sinning, we are to focus on the beam in our own eye. When some area crosses the line in our understandings that what we are doing is a sin, then we can't go ahead and 'sin as unto the Lord'. Paul puts it 'God forbid'.

But back to the use of a gun and the testimony it may give to the unsaved. Todate I haven't run across anyone who said to me the reason I'm not a Christian is because I know Christians who hunt and kill for sport. Or hunting has been a stumbling block area where a Christian got so disgusted with hunting Christians that they abandoned their belief in God or on the other hand, joined the military or police forces feeling more justified in killing evil people as that seemed more ethical than hunting innocent animals for sport. But someone here may have run across this logic.

But we do have those in Anabaptism and other conservative groups, like the one I was raised in, that do have a 'holier than thou' attitude about their orthopraxy. How we serve God is - 'blah, blah, blah' and notice how obedient or how committed we are as Christ followers. It often sounds to me like if you can get the word 'conservative' somewhere in how your group is identified, then you are in the 'above average' class of Christians. And some may think that about having a gun or having a 'military type gun' built for the primary purpose of killing people. I do like to hear the reasons why we practise Christianity the way we do and God knows what is really the motives behind our practise. The fight with the ego is there whether it be in trophy hunting or holiness styles or many other areas. God gives His grace to the humble but resists the proud. Something I need reminding of often.
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RZehr
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by RZehr »

So hunting hogs seems like a good use of an AR.
But my bigger question is simply, are we willing to forgo this "right" to own an AR for the sake of a clearer testimony? Or are we so attached to these guns and hunting and shooting that others can just like it or lump it?
If we don't have one, then we don't have to explain why we have one. I remember one time we were shooting clay targets with an acquaintance. We had a bunch of firearms there, not just shotguns. We had some Mennonite girls in coverings and cape dresses out shooting too. I remember this acquaintance joking that we were all "non-resistant" but that he would never want to invade our house or something like that.
This is the sort of mixed messages that we do well to think about.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote:I didn’t think of hogs. I haven’t hunted hogs but from what I know about it I can see an AR-15 being a legitimate and preferred weapon of choice.
From what I think I know, you’d want to kill the whole herd and not have any educated survivors. You’d want a powerful, fast firing, high capacity rifle. And I know some even use infrared scopes.
As well as a suppressor so that the first few shots don't spook the herd too quickly giving the hunter an opportunity to kill a few more wild hogs. I helped a friend with a herd that was destroying his sorghum field. About 5 of us began firing at once and in a short time we were able to dispatch 3/4 of the herd. Getting your friends together isn't always possible however. We did take the butchered meat to a local soup kitchen that feeds the homeless and they made some stews and barbecue with it, enough for almost 3 weeks of meals.
But would not a less military style rifle do just as well, give you more accuracy and muzzle velocity, and be further removed from its military origins? I don’t know about down there, but here we are limited to a five shot magazine when hunting, negating most of the advantages of military weapons.

BTW, be a bit careful about cooking that meat, and use a meat thermometer. Those wild boar/pigs are likely infected with Trichinella worms, so proper cooking is critical. It has been eradicated from the commercial supply.

J.M.
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RZehr
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by RZehr »

My understanding is that in some southern states where hogs are a huge problem, they are not considered game animals but rather varmints. And as such, normal hunting regulations such as night hunting, magazine limits, etc don't apply. But I could be wrong.
With a herd of 10 hogs, I'd sure like a 30 round magazine instead of 5. They are fast and tough.
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MaxPC
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by MaxPC »

I don't use an AR to hunt nor a suppressor as some do. In fact no one in our hunting party had that kind of weaponry. My .30 calibers do well enough though I've seen some of the wild hogs try to charge me even after I put 3 direct hits into them; their lungs are located higher and more forward in the chest than a deer; that and their armor quality skull make them a difficult target. They can outrun an adult human and their tusks will have you bleeding to death in a nanosecond so it's important to get them down before they charge. They'll attack children and livestock as well. There are herds of these hogs running wild in many states. My friend that I helped lives in Missouri where the hogs are a problem.

All that said, I don't judge others who steer clear of guns. Neither do I get uptight about hunting. I'm of the mindset that everyone has a different perspective on this. I think talking about it to work for solutions is a good use of our time, most certainly.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Sudsy
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:So hunting hogs seems like a good use of an AR.
But my bigger question is simply, are we willing to forgo this "right" to own an AR for the sake of a clearer testimony? Or are we so attached to these guns and hunting and shooting that others can just like it or lump it?
If we don't have one, then we don't have to explain why we have one. I remember one time we were shooting clay targets with an acquaintance. We had a bunch of firearms there, not just shotguns. We had some Mennonite girls in coverings and cape dresses out shooting too. I remember this acquaintance joking that we were all "non-resistant" but that he would never want to invade our house or something like that.
This is the sort of mixed messages that we do well to think about.
Do you really think the vast majority looking on as non-believers view shooting a gun or not is related to being a Christian ? What are the most important aspects to a 'clearer testimony' in being a Christ follower ? It would seem to me that good deeds and not being ashamed to share the Gospel are two biggees in what Jesus pointed to. I think we can make all kinds of other issues as the 'weightier matters' of a testimony when they don't appear to be according to Jesus.

Jesus could have clearly said to Peter to completely get rid of his sword as having a sword is not a good testimony of being a disciple. But He didn't and much is debated about why He didn't. I guess one could use this text to create a practise that one gun is enough and since a sword can only be used one swing at a time, the one gun we have should be a single shot gun. This is the kind of thing I think is the basis for some rule making where restrictions are placed on everyone in a group to project an image, not necessarily about Christ following but rather as a unique identifier of their group within Christianity. I believe scripture is very much against that sort of thing when it is about a setting ourselves apart from other believers.
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RZehr
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:
RZehr wrote:So hunting hogs seems like a good use of an AR.
But my bigger question is simply, are we willing to forgo this "right" to own an AR for the sake of a clearer testimony? Or are we so attached to these guns and hunting and shooting that others can just like it or lump it?
If we don't have one, then we don't have to explain why we have one. I remember one time we were shooting clay targets with an acquaintance. We had a bunch of firearms there, not just shotguns. We had some Mennonite girls in coverings and cape dresses out shooting too. I remember this acquaintance joking that we were all "non-resistant" but that he would never want to invade our house or something like that.
This is the sort of mixed messages that we do well to think about.
Do you really think the vast majority looking on as non-believers view shooting a gun or not is related to being a Christian ? What are the most important aspects to a 'clearer testimony' in being a Christ follower ? It would seem to me that good deeds and not being ashamed to share the Gospel are two biggees in what Jesus pointed to. I think we can make all kinds of other issues as the 'weightier matters' of a testimony when they don't appear to be according to Jesus.

Jesus could have clearly said to Peter to completely get rid of his sword as having a sword is not a good testimony of being a disciple. But He didn't and much is debated about why He didn't. I guess one could use this text to create a practise that one gun is enough and since a sword can only be used one swing at a time, the one gun we have should be a single shot gun. This is the kind of thing I think is the basis for some rule making where restrictions are placed on everyone in a group to project an image, not necessarily about Christ following but rather as a unique identifier of their group within Christianity. I believe scripture is very much against that sort of thing when it is about a setting ourselves apart from other believers.
I don't know what the majority feels like, but on this issue, I'm not swinging for the majority looking on.
I'm swinging for the small minority that we are personally intimate enough with to influence their lives. The people that know us enough to know that we profess non-resistance.

This is not about the weightier matters. Not everything is about the weightier matters. And just because there is important things to keep in mind, doesn't negate smaller things at all.

KJV Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Underlines are mine.

I'm quite neutral about setting ourselves apart from other believers. I mean, who is setting who apart? Am I setting myself apart from you, or are you setting yourself apart from me? I don't really know.
But since I believe that non-resistance and wearing a veil is a biblical teaching since the beginning of Christianity, it is the resistant believers that are setting themselves apart from historical practice and belief and apart from the believers that practice these things.
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Sudsy
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote: I don't know what the majority feels like, but on this issue, I'm not swinging for the majority looking on.
I'm swinging for the small minority that we are personally intimate enough with to influence their lives. The people that know us enough to know that we profess non-resistance.

I guess the best way to know if they think a Christian having a gun for purposes other than killing other humans conflicts with a non-resistance belief, would be to ask them. Knowing what might be a stumbling block to someone we are trying to influence for the Lord could be most anything.

This is not about the weightier matters. Not everything is about the weightier matters. And just because there is important things to keep in mind, doesn't negate smaller things at all.

Agree.

KJV Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Underlines are mine.

So you tithe (give ten percent) on everything considered an income even what you grow in a herb garden ? ;) Just kiddin.

I'm quite neutral about setting ourselves apart from other believers. I mean, who is setting who apart? Am I setting myself apart from you, or are you setting yourself apart from me? I don't really know.
But since I believe that non-resistance and wearing a veil is a biblical teaching since the beginning of Christianity, it is the resistant believers that are setting themselves apart from historical practice and belief and apart from the believers that practice these things.

Sounds to me like you do know who is doing the setting apart by what I underlined. Actually Anabaptism (be baptized again as a believer) came into being by setting themselves apart from the biblical understanding and historical practise for some 1500 years regarding water baptism of babies. Personally, I don't think any 'secondary beliefs' (those not directly about Jesus being our Saviour) were ever to set us apart from each other in the body of Christ. But we have allowed them to.

Anyway, as some say, we are the only bibles some will ever read so I do agree we should consider these things but also to ask those observing our lives, what are they getting from this read. It could be very revealing what they understand our lives represent and how much of what they see is associated with Jesus and not something else.

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