Mennonites And Guns And Society

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
RZehr
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Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by RZehr »

How do we want to be seen as simple, plain, peaceable Christians? What is to be prioritized? Our plain living? Our cooking? Our "country" living? Our peaceable, non-violent living? What are we willing to do to preserve what we value? Which of our values should hold sway over our other values when they are in conflict?

It has been argued that we are primarily a rural people, and for us to have AR-15 rifles is not any different than Grampa using a Springfield or Mouser for hunting. It has been argued that since military rifles have always been used for hunting, the AR-15 is just todays version of a Springfield.

I think there is a big and important difference. One reason is that times have changed, and by that I mean the political climate which is actually a reflection of a sea change in society. Today we live in a time where most people are not familiar with guns and view them negatively.

We are here to promote the peaceful kingdom of heaven at all costs, and if the time has come when owning an AR-15 besmirches this goal then we ought to be willing to get rid of it.
In my opinion where you live is a consideration too. If I lived in NYC, I feel that having any firearm would be a net negative. Maybe if you live in an area where everyone had guns you could have some guns. But even in these rural areas if we have AR-15s, I think the wiser position is to not have AR-15s.

Is it completely wrong to have an AR-15 according to me? No. In fact I would love to shoot one with a bump stock. Long ago I went to a shooting place and rented a Thompson sub machine gun. I loved shooting, and get a blast out of blowing things up.
I don't have a AR-15 but I have a Intratec DC-9 from long ago, which makes me completely inconsistent with what I'm saying here.
So I guess this is me thinking out loud.
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Wade
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Wade »

Maybe it's because I have a 7mm and a 12 guage shotgun, but the kick and the noise is so offensive that I don't enjoy shooting... I do enjoy hunting, the wilderness, and providing for my family however. Getting a deer with a crossbow in the yard while my family peered out the window last fall was much more quiet and peaceful.

I think hunting can be done in a respectful God fearing way but like anything it can also be turned into something that isn't. I am not sure having a gun that isn't intended for hunting (or those snakes down south) would be fitting for a Christian?
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RZehr
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by RZehr »

Maybe you should try a semi-auto. And tannerite. Much more entertaining to shoot. :D In recent years, I've found that I'd rather just about rather blast some inanimate object than hunt something. Although I did kill a deer last year and will eat it, there is a growing side of me that doesn't like to destroy life.
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Wade
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Wade »

RZehr wrote:Maybe you should try a semi-auto. And tannerite. Much more entertaining to shoot. :D In recent years, I've found that I'd rather just about rather blast some inanimate object than hunt something. Although I did kill a deer last year and will eat it, there is a growing side of me that doesn't like to destroy life.
I used to have an SKS with 1200 full metal jacket rounds in stripper clips, including beyonet. I shot that.
Shooting in itself is destructive and unpeaceful to me now anyway, but yet I still have guns...
I have never enjoyed shooting animals - my first big game animal was an elk, I was so overwhelmed that I prayed - I was then still an atheist... :-|
And as much as I don't like death, Someone did die so we could live. :hug:
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MaxPC
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr, I think you made several outstanding points:
- your residential and vocational locale
- your reasons for having the weapon
(I'll say weapon instead of gun because there are many weapons that kill humans, not just guns.)
- do we have to hunt to supplement our family's pantry or for protection against dangerous animals?

Locale and protection: we've lived and camped in places that have wild boars/hogs. The animals can gore you and kill you. At the minimum a 30.06 or .30/.30 is recommended because of their tough hides. The AR 15 has also become popular to hunt these dangerous animals that kill humans and pets.

Is it the weapon itself that needs to be banned or the person using the weapon? We have to remember that shovels and other things can be used to kill as well. Maybe the eligible age of gun ownership will help. The FBI doing a better job of surveillance and intervention as needed is a good idea.

I agree there are no simple answers and we need to proceed cautiously in light of the founding documents establishing the nation.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
RZehr
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by RZehr »

I didn’t think of hogs. I haven’t hunted hogs but from what I know about it I can see an AR-15 being a legitimate and preferred weapon of choice.
From what I think I know, you’d want to kill the whole herd and not have any educated survivors. You’d want a powerful, fast firing, high capacity rifle. And I know some even use infrared scopes.
Actually I did hunt hogs one evening. Fired a bolt action rifle as fast as I could work the bolt.
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MaxPC
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:I didn’t think of hogs. I haven’t hunted hogs but from what I know about it I can see an AR-15 being a legitimate and preferred weapon of choice.
From what I think I know, you’d want to kill the whole herd and not have any educated survivors. You’d want a powerful, fast firing, high capacity rifle. And I know some even use infrared scopes.
As well as a suppressor so that the first few shots don't spook the herd too quickly giving the hunter an opportunity to kill a few more wild hogs. I helped a friend with a herd that was destroying his sorghum field. About 5 of us began firing at once and in a short time we were able to dispatch 3/4 of the herd. Getting your friends together isn't always possible however. We did take the butchered meat to a local soup kitchen that feeds the homeless and they made some stews and barbecue with it, enough for almost 3 weeks of meals.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
RZehr
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by RZehr »

MaxPC wrote:
RZehr wrote:I didn’t think of hogs. I haven’t hunted hogs but from what I know about it I can see an AR-15 being a legitimate and preferred weapon of choice.
From what I think I know, you’d want to kill the whole herd and not have any educated survivors. You’d want a powerful, fast firing, high capacity rifle. And I know some even use infrared scopes.
As well as a suppressor so that the first few shots don't spook the herd too quickly giving the hunter an opportunity to kill a few more wild hogs. I helped a friend with a herd that was destroying his sorghum field. About 5 of us began firing at once and in a short time we were able to dispatch 3/4 of the herd. Getting your friends together isn't always possible however. We did take the butchered meat to a local soup kitchen that feeds the homeless and they made some stews and barbecue with it, enough for almost 3 weeks of meals.
I agree. Hogs are terrificaly damaging to crops.
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Sudsy
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:How do we want to be seen as simple, plain, peaceable Christians? What is to be prioritized? Our plain living? Our cooking? Our "country" living? Our peaceable, non-violent living? What are we willing to do to preserve what we value? Which of our values should hold sway over our other values when they are in conflict?

In general, I would think whatever draws people to Christ to be of utmost value. If our ways of living are not doing that, then something is wrong.

Some thoughts about the testimony in non-violent living - one value that to me is part of non-violent living would be placing a high value on life of all sorts. From not slandering others to keeping from killing God's creatures unless when there is no other choice. And this view is not how I grew up as we hunted rabbits all winter and deer, which we ate, but much of this was driven not by our need for food but for the sport of trophy killing. Wow, if we got more rabbits one day than another what big hunters we were. And to get a buck deer with antlers, major ego symbol, as the number of points on the antlers were very important to building our ego over how great a hunter we were. One day, looking down my rifle at a deer, I saw the beauty of this animal and realized I had no good reason to kill it other than to nurture my ego. My hunting days ended.

I realize that at times a 'thinning of the herd' is required and they do that in our location so all the deer don't suffer. I just don't need to get involved with that area of conservation but some may chose to do that.

As I grow older, I appreciate life more and more in it's various forms. My wife has an even greater appreciation and would check out the skimmer in our swimming pool every morning to set free any bugs and small critters caught in the skimmer. I would tease her when she slapped and killed a mosquito. Myself, I have went from selective killings for conservation of certain species to now working on them living together where they can.

Anyway, I think 'non-violence' is pretty hard to reflect if we are seldom ever confronted with someone physically harming us and restraining ourselves from retaliating physically Some of us do a lousy job of turning the other cheek when someone disagrees with us in a sarcastic way. One can be quite violent with words.


It has been argued that we are primarily a rural people, and for us to have AR-15 rifles is not any different than Grampa using a Springfield or Mouser for hunting. It has been argued that since military rifles have always been used for hunting, the AR-15 is just todays version of a Springfield.

I think there is a big and important difference. One reason is that times have changed, and by that I mean the political climate which is actually a reflection of a sea change in society. Today we live in a time where most people are not familiar with guns and view them negatively.

We are here to promote the peaceful kingdom of heaven at all costs, and if the time has come when owning an AR-15 besmirches this goal then we ought to be willing to get rid of it.

I have trouble thinking of a scenario that a Christian would require a fully automatic weapon to use to kill something not human.

In my opinion where you live is a consideration too. If I lived in NYC, I feel that having any firearm would be a net negative. Maybe if you live in an area where everyone had guns you could have some guns. But even in these rural areas if we have AR-15s, I think the wiser position is to not have AR-15s.

Is it completely wrong to have an AR-15 according to me? No. In fact I would love to shoot one with a bump stock. Long ago I went to a shooting place and rented a Thompson sub machine gun. I loved shooting, and get a blast out of blowing things up.
I don't have a AR-15 but I have a Intratec DC-9 from long ago, which makes me completely inconsistent with what I'm saying here.
So I guess this is me thinking out loud.

For me, the image of the primary use of guns is to kill and/or destroy something. If one does not think Jesus was telling Peter to keep a sword for defensive purposes, then why would a Christian own a gun ? If there was no other way to get food I would think that killing to eat is allowed but killing for ego's sake, that seems suspect to me. Those barns and trophy rooms with deer heads or deer antlers are symbols of pride are they not ?

Now I'm ducking and waiting for animal and bird hunters to take a shot at me.
:lol:
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MaxPC
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Re: Mennonites And Guns And Society

Post by MaxPC »

No reason to "duck", Sudsy :lol:

Personally I've considered the following aspects of this topic:
Jesus didn't preach against hunting, he did preach love of God and neighbor. He did come "eating and drinking" and we know he did eat meat at Passover and other Jewish celebrations. There were no hunting guns in Jesus' day. There were weapons however, both for hunting and for war. He didn't preach against hunting; Jesus did preach love and by extrapolation of that love, peace with our fellow man. He didn't preach against weapons. He preached how our attitudes towards our neighbor and God are the root of our discipleship.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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