Apostolic Christian Church

[Valerie]

The New Testament speaks quite a bit about the importance of separation from the apostate.

Most attempts to unify different groups of Christians have resulted in very worldly, unbiblical groups. I hope you wouldn’t be offended that I would not consider a Methodist lesbian minister to be a Christian and would not greet such a person as one. Instead, we are to consider such people as a tax gatherer or a heathen, and should share the gospel with them.

Yet who sits in the seat of Christ to truly determine who is Apostate? This is the problem I've had with both the Anabaptists when seeking them for a place to fellowship, and then to the Orthodox- well even within Anabaptists & within Orthodox- they consider some of their 'own' apostate- for example- when one is baptized into the Amish Church- they are considered apostate if they leave & join Mennonites- they are shunned for this- but by what basis?
Recently I had asked a question about this in an "Ask About the Orthodox Faith Group". I know that they consider anyone who claims to be a Christian but rejects Orthodox Church as 'deceived' - in fact I was messaged this:

"The positive message of the passage is about the faithful, that is those who have pure Orthodox faith, it is clear from the context.
The Scripture is really 'harsh' speaking about those who do not hold the teaching (orthodox is exactly this, the right teaching): "do not give him a greeting; For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:10-11)."
One of the best known early Fathers (and I hope you understand that saints did not speak from themselves, they spoke words of the Holy Spirit) said that the unorthodox cannot have humility, and without that virtue nobody can have Christ in him. It's for SURE. Some unorthodox do not know about the true faith, and such people have real excuse. But without the true faith real Christianity is impossible. Such people may be considered as on their way to Christianity. I personally have pity on them, sincere compassion. But though they call themselves Christians, they are not. As I said, may the Lord open them the way to His Church."


So what we have here are Christians who believe those who do not follow after 'them' as apostate-
Granted- anyone who is in a clear state of 'sin' would be apostate but I also believe that the word apostate as originally used in Scripture was someone who had left the Church by their own opinions/interpretations- and there were many of those schismatics

I'm just wondering who is right in this- and how God is looking at all this.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The New Testament speaks quite a bit about the importance of separation from the apostate.

Most attempts to unify different groups of Christians have resulted in very worldly, unbiblical groups. I hope you wouldn’t be offended that I would not consider a Methodist lesbian minister to be a Christian and would not greet such a person as one. Instead, we are to consider such people as a tax gatherer or a heathen, and should share the gospel with them.

Yet who sits in the seat of Christ to truly determine who is Apostate? This is the problem I've had with both the Anabaptists when seeking them for a place to fellowship, and then to the Orthodox- well even within Anabaptists & within Orthodox- they consider some of their 'own' apostate- for example- when one is baptized into the Amish Church- they are considered apostate if they leave & join Mennonites- they are shunned for this- but by what basis?
Recently I had asked a question about this in an "Ask About the Orthodox Faith Group". I know that they consider anyone who claims to be a Christian but rejects Orthodox Church as 'deceived' - in fact I was messaged this:

"The positive message of the passage is about the faithful, that is those who have pure Orthodox faith, it is clear from the context.
The Scripture is really 'harsh' speaking about those who do not hold the teaching (orthodox is exactly this, the right teaching): "do not give him a greeting; For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:10-11)."
One of the best known early Fathers (and I hope you understand that saints did not speak from themselves, they spoke words of the Holy Spirit) said that the unorthodox cannot have humility, and without that virtue nobody can have Christ in him. It's for SURE. Some unorthodox do not know about the true faith, and such people have real excuse. But without the true faith real Christianity is impossible. Such people may be considered as on their way to Christianity. I personally have pity on them, sincere compassion. But though they call themselves Christians, they are not. As I said, may the Lord open them the way to His Church."


So what we have here are Christians who believe those who do not follow after 'them' as apostate-
Granted- anyone who is in a clear state of 'sin' would be apostate but I also believe that the word apostate as originally used in Scripture was someone who had left the Church by their own opinions/interpretations- and there were many of those schismatics

I'm just wondering who is right in this- and how God is looking at all this.

Christianity DOES have absolute limits. Otherwise why should Jesus have referred to such limits in the passages quoted above?

J.M.

[Heirbyadoption]

From this thread:
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=364

All the churches in Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia cover full time. With most female members in Hungary, Germany, Sweden and Austria covering full time as well. As a rule we don’t greet female members without a covering, nor do we greet male members whose heads are covered.

What does the bolded mean? How might men cover their heads which would disqualify them?
In CM culture, greeting means giving someone a Holy Kiss along with the right hand of fellowship. Men with men and ladies with ladies. If a man is wearing a cap or hat, I would greet them regardless.

Yes, a hat or headpiece for a man. We only use the Holy Kiss inside church or private settings. But we shake hands as a greeting outside when meeting any members male or female. The greetings is a sacred practice to our faith as we believe we are issuing a blessing from God, not greeting a member is a serious offence.
As men remove their hats/headpieces before prayer, so will they do the same before issuing/receiving the greetings as they are asking God to bless the member and in return receiving a blessing from God.

Karstan - Do apostolics ever greet nonapostolic Christians with a kiss?

[Josh]

The New Testament speaks quite a bit about the importance of separation from the apostate.

Most attempts to unify different groups of Christians have resulted in very worldly, unbiblical groups. I hope you wouldn’t be offended that I would not consider a Methodist lesbian minister to be a Christian and would not greet such a person as one. Instead, we are to consider such people as a tax gatherer or a heathen, and should share the gospel with them.

Yet who sits in the seat of Christ to truly determine who is Apostate? This is the problem I've had with both the Anabaptists when seeking them for a place to fellowship, and then to the Orthodox- well even within Anabaptists & within Orthodox- they consider some of their 'own' apostate- for example- when one is baptized into the Amish Church- they are considered apostate if they leave & join Mennonites- they are shunned for this- but by what basis?
Recently I had asked a question about this in an "Ask About the Orthodox Faith Group". I know that they consider anyone who claims to be a Christian but rejects Orthodox Church as 'deceived' - in fact I was messaged this:

"The positive message of the passage is about the faithful, that is those who have pure Orthodox faith, it is clear from the context.
The Scripture is really 'harsh' speaking about those who do not hold the teaching (orthodox is exactly this, the right teaching): "do not give him a greeting; For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:10-11)."
One of the best known early Fathers (and I hope you understand that saints did not speak from themselves, they spoke words of the Holy Spirit) said that the unorthodox cannot have humility, and without that virtue nobody can have Christ in him. It's for SURE. Some unorthodox do not know about the true faith, and such people have real excuse. But without the true faith real Christianity is impossible. Such people may be considered as on their way to Christianity. I personally have pity on them, sincere compassion. But though they call themselves Christians, they are not. As I said, may the Lord open them the way to His Church."


So what we have here are Christians who believe those who do not follow after 'them' as apostate-
Granted- anyone who is in a clear state of 'sin' would be apostate but I also believe that the word apostate as originally used in Scripture was someone who had left the Church by their own opinions/interpretations- and there were many of those schismatics

I'm just wondering who is right in this- and how God is looking at all this.

A lesbian Methodist minister is obviously apostate.

[Karstan78]

Karstan - Do apostolics ever greet nonapostolic Christians with a kiss?

No, we only reserve the Holy Kiss of Charity for members of our faith. That being said, there are several different branches that all share the same statement of faith and yet, feel the need to worship separately due to church ordinances. Some would heartily greet all members under the “Froelich*” body with the Holy Kiss, whereas some on the ultra-conservative end might not extend more than a handshake greeting.

*Froehlich was the church founder who is sometimes used as an umbrella term for all the various churches.

[temporal1]

Karstan - Do apostolics ever greet nonapostolic Christians with a kiss?

No, we only reserve the Holy Kiss of Charity for members of our faith.
That being said, there are several different branches that all share the same statement of faith and yet, feel the need to worship separately due to church ordinances.
Some would heartily greet all members under the “Froelich*” body with the Holy Kiss, whereas some on the ultra-conservative end might not extend more than a handshake greeting.

*Froehlich was the church founder who is sometimes used as an umbrella term for all the various churches.

Karstan, this is an aside, but, i so appreciate you are sharing. i’m reading, trying to grasp it all.

when i was very young, probably 19, i worked with a young woman who said she was Apostolic Christian. i knew nothing of it. i still remember her, she was so bright+cheerful. i don’t recall any dress cues. (this was office work for a large insurance headquarters.)

i was interested in learning, i asked her about her church.
i remember how, for a moment, she “stopped” everything, looked at me briefly, then, briefly+uncharacteristically seriously said, “don’t ask.” i didn’t.

then we carried on as tho i had not asked.
but, i always wondered.

we moved from that location.
much later, i realized, in that location there was an ACC presence, she must have been born+raised.
she was a young married, they lived on a farm. maybe somewhat like living two lives?

as you write, i try to piece together her pov.

i.e., when asked, most people will engage on some level about their faith.
“don’t ask,” was a thought-provoking response.

[Karstan78]

Karstan - Do apostolics ever greet nonapostolic Christians with a kiss?

No, we only reserve the Holy Kiss of Charity for members of our faith.
That being said, there are several different branches that all share the same statement of faith and yet, feel the need to worship separately due to church ordinances.
Some would heartily greet all members under the “Froelich*” body with the Holy Kiss, whereas some on the ultra-conservative end might not extend more than a handshake greeting.

*Froehlich was the church founder who is sometimes used as an umbrella term for all the various churches.

Karstan, this is an aside, but, i so appreciate you are sharing. i’m reading, trying to grasp it all.

when i was very young, probably 19, i worked with a young woman who said she was Apostolic Christian. i knew nothing of it. i still remember her, she was so bright+cheerful. i don’t recall any dress cues. (this was office work for a large insurance headquarters.)

i was interested in learning, i asked her about her church.
i remember how, for a moment, she “stopped” everything, looked at me briefly, then, briefly+uncharacteristically seriously said, “don’t ask.” i didn’t.

then we carried on as tho i had not asked.
but, i always wondered.

we moved from that location.
much later, i realized, in that location there was an ACC presence, she must have been born+raised.
she was a young married, they lived on a farm. maybe somewhat like living two lives?

as you write, i try to piece together her pov.

i.e., when asked, most people will engage on some level about their faith.
“don’t ask,” was a thought-provoking response.

That’s really interesting. I believe that one issue lies in how the churches run parallel to the world. We are always taught to separate ourselves, but we still have to exist in this world. Many outside of Europe don’t generally live in rural communities where the town/village is majority of church members. My own church has 80members and we live in a city over 1 million, with the next Anabaptist church 3.5 hours away. Some people may feel that as our beliefs are considered “old fashioned” it can be embarrassing to share our faith, eg. Separate seating, hymnal singing, a foreign language preaching after English service and head coverings are some I remember mentioned. I also remember some teens growing up who used to be embarrassed when their mom’s picked them up from school wearing their big babushka headcoverings. I am speaking from a Nazarean/Nazarene background so there may be some cultural differences with that colleague from the ACCA. The ACCA has generally been more restrictive in their ordinances than the Nazareans. Still really sad to hear that about her.

[temporal1]

Karstan wrote:
That’s really interesting.

I believe that one issue lies in how the churches run parallel to the world.
We are always taught to separate ourselves, but we still have to exist in this world.

Many outside of Europe don’t generally live in rural communities where the town/village is majority of church members. My own church has 80members and we live in a city over 1 million, with the next Anabaptist church 3.5 hours away.

Some people may feel that as our beliefs are considered “old fashioned” it can be embarrassing to share our faith, eg. Separate seating, hymnal singing, a foreign language preaching after English service and head coverings are some I remember mentioned.

I also remember some teens growing up who used to be embarrassed when their mom’s picked them up from school wearing their big babushka headcoverings.

I am speaking from a Nazarean/Nazarene background so there may be some cultural differences with that colleague from the ACCA. The ACCA has generally been more restrictive in their ordinances than the Nazareans. Still really sad to hear that about her.

yes, this seems plausible.
she was such a sweet girl. smiling, friendly, warm.
probably the swift “change” in her at the mention of church, was, “it’s just too complicated, you would not understand.” that was the message i thought she was conveying. i wasn’t sure. i respected her judgment. i did not want to press her.

we were both so young. i would not expect her to be able to convey, or to be comfortable to convey everything she probably knew (what is enough? what is too much?) .. and, i have no idea if i would have been able to understand. we were at work, there wasn’t a lot of time ..

i don’t want to think she was ashamed, but, i can empathize about trying to navigate 2 worlds that don’t seem to have much in common. that sort of thing happens maybe more often than is recognized.

maybe like being bilingual. one language for home, another for school/work.

frankly, i sense my granddaughter may be experiencing this now, going from parochial school to public school. she learned right away, to not talk about her faith at school! forbidden!
she misses parochial school.

[plain]

members in Hungary, Germany, Sweden and Austria...

Where is the church[es] is Sweden?

[MaxPC]

Does the ACC Nazarean have a website?
This is the branch that continues full time head covering, yes?