Benjamin Lay, Quaker Prophet

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Ernie
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Benjamin Lay, Quaker Prophet

Post by Ernie »

In other threads we are noticing how hard it is for those who are comfortable in a particular religious subculture to notice inconsistencies in their subculture that are obvious to nearly everyone but themselves.

Read this story and then comment on the questions below. Only those who completely read the story are permitted to comment in this thread.

https://www.plainnews.org/2018/02/13/th ... slavery-2/

• Benjamin Lay did not primarily promote political change against slavery (although he was not against mentioning how some Quaker politicians were evil for backing slavery). Eventually, a century later, his ideas became more mainstream, to the point of causing political change in the US. How did his methods differ from a typical political protest in Washington, D.C., today?
• At what point does a rebuke against sin become “uncouth”? If we were the slaves being whipped, malnourished, and forced to work long, hard hours in the heat or cold, how might that change our ideas about “uncouth” rebukes? What if it was our 3-year-old child being taken from us and sold as a slave?
• If war-making is sin, what are some ways that we, as non-resistant believers, may be involved in it as a third-party? In what ways might Benjamin Lay, for example, make some practical applications against war-making in the 21st century (avoiding direct political action, as Lay appears to have done)?
• Is it OK to make “dramatic” scenes (stabbing a book with red juice in it, for example) to draw people’s attention to a sin or a righteous cause?
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Wade
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Re: Benjamin Lay, Quaker Prophet

Post by Wade »

Well here goes....

We live in a society today that we have become so detached to what the value of things are that we really do take for granted what is happening in regards to belongings and luxuries...
So what is the value of the items we buy? Do we even understand the real value of food since we buy foreign vegetables and fruit all year round while our governments subsidize our large farms here to keep our wanted low prices so we can consume on other luxuries? Money and borrowing ties into all this too.
We have become accustomed to a level of live style and the expectation of that that we can't seem to piece together what is going on because we can't see past ourselves...
We live with luxuries that the rest of the previous generations of the world didn't even dream of and yet we as Christian's expect them...
So what has happened with our expectations is the demand of higher wages and lower prices continually? As wages have continually increased so have the "minimum" of luxury items. And we have pushed ourselves out of the market in regards to being able to produce our own products for the price we expect and the wages we want. So companies have looked outside our countries to fill that gap. It is often said around here, "You never get rich off your own back." We have found 3rd world countries are more than willing to produce many products for us at prices lower than we could even obtain the raw materials for. Sounds like a good deal and wise business practices...
So how can these countries do it? Because of poor working conditions, lack of safety, etc., and so at the expense of others health and life that we wouldn't even attempt, we gain cheap products that we waste on our selfish desires...
You see, I do believe that we have slaves working for us today, they just aren't living under our direct supervision and we don't see their poor working/living conditions. No, rather they are out of sight in another country suffer so we don't have to feel convicted by our love of entertainment and luxuries and etc.
Would we work for pennies a day while our families suffered without proper medical care and food as we lived in a shack, so that 1st world countries could have the latest cellphones, vehicles, clean running water, warm houses, etc....????
I believe that slavery is alive and thriving today and as we support this culture we live in especially by buy unnecessary items we do have slaves today!
I know some will be thinking if we don't buy those items then those families will have no jobs. But if we lived like plain Christ-like unselfish people, wouldn't our testimony of being simple, resourceful people influence and encourage others to do the same? And wouldn't our time and monies be freed to partake in things like micro-loans in CAM where people are giving opportunity and training to do just that?
I've tried to say it before that non-resistance goes along with simple plain living and not with things like holiday trips, motorcycles, the latest cellphones, and etc. because we are rather using our resources to be peacemakers and not peacelovers to enjoy these luxuries and resources on ourselves... Some of the items we buy are at the expense of other peoples health and lives... Sounds like it maybe time for a Benjamin Lay of our day!

It looks like there is going to come a time when countries like China will own North America or we will be indebted to them enough because of all this and they may very well ask us to start producing for them luxuries at low wages and poor conditions. North America is likely going to say, "No." If war starts because of this are we guilty?
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Josh
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Re: Benjamin Lay, Quaker Prophet

Post by Josh »

Wade makes an excellent case for anti-globalisation. I often question myself since my job puts me at the forefront of promoting globalisation.
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RZehr
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Re: Benjamin Lay, Quaker Prophet

Post by RZehr »

I'm for globalization as a rule. Sure its not perfect. Only looking at our imports isn't complete. Our small family company sells US grown agricultural products to 30+ countries. We also trade agricultural products from South America to Europe and from New Zealand/Australia to Asia.

As far as I know, and I am very sure I do know, the US grown agricultural products we sell are not being subsidized by the government, nor insured by the government. And they are locally owned family farms. Many of our customers are also privately owned companies.

To a certain extent, if we are against globalization, then we should also be against skilled tradesmen. We should all do our own accounting, mine our rock, we should log and mill our own lumber, plumb our own pipes, grow our own food, grow sheep, spin wool, etc.
Globalization is simply allowing people to do what they do best. If we excel in something, why should we be limited to where we can sell it? Should the logging community only be allowed to sell their logs and lumber products within the county it was grown? Should the Liberians not be allowed to sell rubber to the US? Should the Brazilians not be allowed to sell grain to China? Should Mexicans not be allowed to migrate to the US for better jobs? Should the Dumagat tribe of the Philippines not be allowed to sell rattan rockers to the US?

I don't think it is fair to blame globalization for poor working conditions. Any of these countries are free to make safe working conditions a requirement, just like we did here. Also, I don't think it is fair to say use our living standard as the measure of acceptable living conditions. I think we look at them and see unacceptable conditions where they see acceptable conditions. No matter who it is, from North America to Africa, we all are working at improving our living and working conditions, and raising our standard of living.
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Wade
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Re: Benjamin Lay, Quaker Prophet

Post by Wade »

I am not anti-globalisation. I think my point was completely missed... And I don't want this to bunny trail off what I think was more to the intent of the OP.
• Benjamin Lay did not primarily promote political change against slavery (although he was not against mentioning how some Quaker politicians were evil for backing slavery). Eventually, a century later, his ideas became more mainstream, to the point of causing political change in the US. How did his methods differ from a typical political protest in Washington, D.C., today?
I don't know? I am not involved in politics enough or smart enough, but am more interested in what I can do personally and collectively with the church in using these scenarios to ask ourselves honest questions about our following Christ.
• At what point does a rebuke against sin become “uncouth”? If we were the slaves being whipped, malnourished, and forced to work long, hard hours in the heat or cold, how might that change our ideas about “uncouth” rebukes? What if it was our 3-year-old child being taken from us and sold as a slave?
My phone is dead and my computer is blocking my attempts to even look up the definition of "uncouth." So I don't know what that word means. But are we not supposed to be one body! What is difference if it is my 3 year old sold as a slave or my brother in Christ's? We all suffer.
• If war-making is sin, what are some ways that we, as non-resistant believers, may be involved in it as a third-party? In what ways might Benjamin Lay, for example, make some practical applications against war-making in the 21st century (avoiding direct political action, as Lay appears to have done)?
Like I mentioned above simple unselfish Christ-like living where we are content with needs and we are honest enough to see the difference between our needs and wants plus acting on that.
• Is it OK to make “dramatic” scenes (stabbing a book with red juice in it, for example) to draw people’s attention to a sin or a righteous cause?
I'm not necessarily comfortable with this. But I will say though I am taller than Benjamin Lay I wish I was half the man he was in integrity and standing/suffering for true peacemaking.
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Sudsy
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Re: Benjamin Lay, Quaker Prophet

Post by Sudsy »

Ernie wrote:In other threads we are noticing how hard it is for those who are comfortable in a particular religious subculture to notice inconsistencies in their subculture that are obvious to nearly everyone but themselves.

Read this story and then comment on the questions below. Only those who completely read the story are permitted to comment in this thread.

https://www.plainnews.org/2018/02/13/th ... slavery-2/

• Benjamin Lay did not primarily promote political change against slavery (although he was not against mentioning how some Quaker politicians were evil for backing slavery). Eventually, a century later, his ideas became more mainstream, to the point of causing political change in the US. How did his methods differ from a typical political protest in Washington, D.C., today?

I'm not sure I know what is meant by 'typical political protest' but if this is primarily making signs and parading against things like abortion, I don't think we can determine how much impact this will have in future abortion law changes. Imo, if a Christian does this and praying for abortion to end, like their sign often reads, then do it unto the Lord. While being involved in these efforts, I think supporting any form of violence would not be right even though Jesus overthrew the money changers tables in the temple. Forcefully removing something in a church is different than forcing things out in the world, imo.

• At what point does a rebuke against sin become “uncouth”? If we were the slaves being whipped, malnourished, and forced to work long, hard hours in the heat or cold, how might that change our ideas about “uncouth” rebukes? What if it was our 3-year-old child being taken from us and sold as a slave?

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, religious leaders of that day, with some pretty strong words. However, I see them more as religious leaders who should know better and not the government that was in control. Actually He said to co-operate with the system (that included slavery) and yet do it in a Christian manner. The master of slaves that were Christians were to treat their slaves quite differently than how non-Christians did. I see rebuking to be more of an 'in the church' activity as Jesus did not come to condemn the world.

• If war-making is sin, what are some ways that we, as non-resistant believers, may be involved in it as a third-party? In what ways might Benjamin Lay, for example, make some practical applications against war-making in the 21st century (avoiding direct political action, as Lay appears to have done)?

Showing by our actions we will love our enemies. Lay began in the church pointing out where their practises were not like Jesus. We should never from our perspective have an enemy. We may be an enemy from the other person's perspective but as a Christ follower we are to love everyone in the way Christ looks at them. Perhaps a good place to start is within the Christian church to end all the internal wars of varying secondary beliefs and demonstrate that we don't all need to agree on everything to live in peaceful relationships with one another.

• Is it OK to make “dramatic” scenes (stabbing a book with red juice in it, for example) to draw people’s attention to a sin or a righteous cause?

Sure. People today relate to drama. Our teaching pastor often begins a sermon with a clip from a movie to get people's initial attention. Jesus used stories and here is one from Acts - After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’ ” When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, “Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, “The Lord’s will be done.”
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