Plain Dress Evolution

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Heirbyadoption
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Heirbyadoption »

RZehr wrote:
Ernie wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote: May I respectfully suggest, after some experimental window shopping by my dear companion and I, that its actually not all that hard to establish a general principle/practice of modesty and find suitable clothing in stores that fall within that principle, and that this could be maintained through good teaching and open communication (even to the point of gently following the Matthew 18 pattern if you or another are stumbling because of someone else). It is actually possible to shop for clothing without being a victim of the contemporary fashion industry and their standards.
This will only work if everyone in the church thinks this way.

My experience (in an "open communication church") is that sooner or later, the church will get some people who don't see fashion as being all that big a deal. At first they seem to conform to the group norms but then they gradually start making small changes and wait to see if anyone confronts them.

At first no one wants to confront them because no one wants to be accused of being nit picky.

But eventually in an "open communication" church these things do get addressed by those who are care most about such deviations, and sure enough the one being confronted does feel that the one's doing the addressing are being nit picky. After a few years, these addresses start "building up" and the person starts getting a chip on their soldier.

The other option is to wait until something has gotten really bad and then try to address it, but by then you've left a Trojan horse into the community.
Amen. This is reality speaking here, not theory. :up:
RZehr, I assume, when you speak of reality, you are referencing Ernie's comments?

And Ernie, I agree that this is how things go sometimes in reality. Yes, ideally, if everyone in the church thought alike, it would go well and smoothly. But to clarify, whether the church thinks alike or not, I'm just offering first hand testimony that it IS possible to obtain modest, simple store-bought clothing for men and women. I continue to hear dogmatic statements to the contrary (even on MN sometimes) and frankly, in my experience, this is not the case; instead, such statements strike me as either an excuse to justify not buying store bought clothing, or to maintain a certain style of clothing. I'm not pointing any fingers, it just is what it is.

Back to your earlier comments, though, since we're talking about reality, might I assume we can agree that those who do not teach/keep the discussion relevant about fashion actually being a big deal, and those who are afraid to "confront" (for a variety of reasons, but most because of our own discomfort/embarrassment/pride, not from fear of driving folks away), are actually the enablers in this situation? We like to blame the world and the drifting brother/sister when we see somebody drifting or even "hopping ship", when in reality (at least, as I have experienced it) the uncomfortable reality is that it's just as much (or more) our own fault for not continuing to pursue the conversation with them...
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Hats Off
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Hats Off »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
RZehr wrote:
Ernie wrote: This will only work if everyone in the church thinks this way.

My experience (in an "open communication church") is that sooner or later, the church will get some people who don't see fashion as being all that big a deal. At first they seem to conform to the group norms but then they gradually start making small changes and wait to see if anyone confronts them.

At first no one wants to confront them because no one wants to be accused of being nit picky.

But eventually in an "open communication" church these things do get addressed by those who are care most about such deviations, and sure enough the one being confronted does feel that the one's doing the addressing are being nit picky. After a few years, these addresses start "building up" and the person starts getting a chip on their soldier.

The other option is to wait until something has gotten really bad and then try to address it, but by then you've left a Trojan horse into the community.
Amen. This is reality speaking here, not theory. :up:
RZehr, I assume, when you speak of reality, you are referencing Ernie's comments?

And Ernie, I agree that this is how things go sometimes in reality. Yes, ideally, if everyone in the church thought alike, it would go well and smoothly. But to clarify, whether the church thinks alike or not, I'm just offering first hand testimony that it IS possible to obtain modest, simple store-bought clothing for men and women. I continue to hear dogmatic statements to the contrary (even on MN sometimes) and frankly, in my experience, this is not the case; instead, such statements strike me as either an excuse to justify not buying store bought clothing, or to maintain a certain style of clothing. I'm not pointing any fingers, it just is what it is.

Back to your earlier comments, though, since we're talking about reality, might I assume we can agree that those who do not teach/keep the discussion relevant about fashion actually being a big deal, and those who are afraid to "confront" (for a variety of reasons, but most because of our own discomfort/embarrassment/pride, not from fear of driving folks away), are actually the enablers in this situation? We like to blame the world and the drifting brother/sister when we see somebody drifting or even "hopping ship", when in reality (at least, as I have experienced it) the uncomfortable reality is that it's just as much (or more) our own fault for not continuing to pursue the conversation with them...
I think you are right about the enabling part - but it is too difficult for most of us to determine the right time to approach apparent deviation. If we approach before the full fruit is obvious, we are wrong in the ditch on one side of the road but after the full fruit has shown, it is already too late and we are in the other ditch. With so many people, the window of opportunity to speak to or with them is so narrow that we easily miss it.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Hats Off wrote:...it is too difficult for most of us to determine the right time to approach apparent deviation. If we approach before the full fruit is obvious, we are wrong in the ditch on one side of the road but after the full fruit has shown, it is already too late and we are in the other ditch. With so many people, the window of opportunity to speak to or with them is so narrow that we easily miss it.
I would say yes, and no. It can be difficult, as you clearly articulated. But not only do we gain discernment as we repeatedly make honest efforts to incorporate loving, specific communication with one another, but as we build relationships it can lessen assumptions on their part about our motive. And yes, sometimes we miss that window, but it ought never to be from our apathy, fear, or pride. On the other hand, if our motive is preservation of a form/application just as much or (God forbid) more than a concern for the effects their choices will have on them or others spiritually, we're doomed to failure or the creation of another problem altogether.
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Ernie
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Ernie »

Heirbyadoption wrote:Back to your earlier comments, though, since we're talking about reality, might I assume we can agree that those who do not teach/keep the discussion relevant about fashion actually being a big deal, and those who are afraid to "confront" (for a variety of reasons, but most because of our own discomfort/embarrassment/pride, not from fear of driving folks away), are actually the enablers in this situation? We like to blame the world and the drifting brother/sister when we see somebody drifting or even "hopping ship", when in reality (at least, as I have experienced it) the uncomfortable reality is that it's just as much (or more) our own fault for not continuing to pursue the conversation with them...
I'm sure that such scenarios exist but that has not been my experience. My experience has been that expectations were not stated clearly at the beginning and this made for misunderstandings later.
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Josh
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Josh »

When I was friends with and later dated a Oneness Pentecostal girl, I used to believe similar to Heirbyadoption. So she asked me to come shopping with her and try to find modest outfits. It was not a very successful exercise. After a half hour at the mall, I found 1 thing (after choosing 2 other things which had an immodest “feature” I didn’t notice).

She informed me she already had that item - and then I realised I know at least 2 Mennonite girls with the exact same outfit. A different kind of uniformity...

I used to wonder why she went to Goodwill once or twice a week, until I went with her. Her approach was to comb all the racks for that 1 item that fit properly, wasn’t too short or tight, and wasn’t frumpy.

Perhaps Heir lives in a place where thrift stores are flooded with modest clothing. Well that isn’t the case in Madison Wisconsin or Akron Ohio and I suspect it isn’t most other places outside of a Mennonite stronghold.

Oh - I should add that this poor girl’s clothing wasn’t good enough for some Mennonites, either. Eventually some man confronted her that her skirts weren’t long enough, too tight, and her tops were too tight.

Maybe he was right, but she sure was trying hard. A number of Oneness Pentecostal women are now resorting to making their own clothes and trying to design their own fashions. My friend was learning to be a seamstress because she felt eventually sewing her own clothes would be a better option that storebought.

It’s interesting to observe formerly plain people moving in the opposite direction, and completely confident everything is fine.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Josh wrote:When I was friends with and later dated a Oneness Pentecostal girl, I used to believe similar to Heirbyadoption. So she asked me to come shopping with her and try to find modest outfits. It was not a very successful exercise. After a half hour at the mall, I found 1 thing (after choosing 2 other things which had an immodest “feature” I didn’t notice).

She informed me she already had that item - and then I realised I know at least 2 Mennonite girls with the exact same outfit. A different kind of uniformity...

I used to wonder why she went to Goodwill once or twice a week, until I went with her. Her approach was to comb all the racks for that 1 item that fit properly, wasn’t too short or tight, and wasn’t frumpy.

Perhaps Heir lives in a place where thrift stores are flooded with modest clothing. Well that isn’t the case in Madison Wisconsin or Akron Ohio and I suspect it isn’t most other places outside of a Mennonite stronghold.

Oh - I should add that this poor girl’s clothing wasn’t good enough for some Mennonites, either. Eventually some man confronted her that her skirts weren’t long enough, too tight, and her tops were too tight.

Maybe he was right, but she sure was trying hard. A number of Oneness Pentecostal women are now resorting to making their own clothes and trying to design their own fashions. My friend was learning to be a seamstress because she felt eventually sewing her own clothes would be a better option that storebought.

It’s interesting to observe formerly plain people moving in the opposite direction, and completely confident everything is fine.
ROFTL. My wife and I must have scoured every thrift store in our area, with zero to show for it. We wound up visiting thrift stores in Lancaster county. Found some stuff that would pass. Our conference is not all that conservative, but it is almost impossible to get stuff off the rack, even in thrift stores. I would say most of the stuff in mainstream stores won’t pass. One thing that dose work is stores that sell “historical” clothing. Some of their stuff works fine. Even some of the stuff for men won’t pass these days!

I think for gals, it was the 1920’s that began the separation between what conservative Mennonites would wear and the mainstream.

J.M.
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RZehr
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by RZehr »

Heirbyadoption wrote: RZehr, I assume, when you speak of reality, you are referencing Ernie's comments?

And Ernie, I agree that this is how things go sometimes in reality. Yes, ideally, if everyone in the church thought alike, it would go well and smoothly. But to clarify, whether the church thinks alike or not, I'm just offering first hand testimony that it IS possible to obtain modest, simple store-bought clothing for men and women. I continue to hear dogmatic statements to the contrary (even on MN sometimes) and frankly, in my experience, this is not the case; instead, such statements strike me as either an excuse to justify not buying store bought clothing, or to maintain a certain style of clothing. I'm not pointing any fingers, it just is what it is.

Back to your earlier comments, though, since we're talking about reality, might I assume we can agree that those who do not teach/keep the discussion relevant about fashion actually being a big deal, and those who are afraid to "confront" (for a variety of reasons, but most because of our own discomfort/embarrassment/pride, not from fear of driving folks away), are actually the enablers in this situation? We like to blame the world and the drifting brother/sister when we see somebody drifting or even "hopping ship", when in reality (at least, as I have experienced it) the uncomfortable reality is that it's just as much (or more) our own fault for not continuing to pursue the conversation with them...
Yes, I was referencing Ernies comment.

I know that as a matter of possibility, yes it is possible for someone to buy their clothes and dress modest. As far as whether it is difficult, or more difficult than sewing, I don’t have much experience.

With regard to enabling – My experience has been different than yours. I rarely hear someone drifting or “hopping ship” talk about how they want the conversation to be pursued. In fact they often wish the rest of the people would ignore what they are dressing like and leave them alone.
There are times that people want a conversation (sometimes they need understanding, or teaching. Sometimes they are learned on the subject and would like the church to change its position) on these things, but if they already are acting on what they want instead of having a conversation as a group, what they really want is not a conversation but a change in the churches position to reflect their own preference.
And sometimes they have already adopted changes in order to "force" the conversations. And if the church doesn't accommodate their desire, then they are in a pretty tough position since they already have made changes.

And again, in my experience, it is primarily a fear of driving these folks away that is the cause for handling them with kid gloves* ** ***. And the discomfort/embarrassment/pride is the natural and secondary tendency.

Yes you have a point, and I don’t much disagree with you in theory. But I guess I just believe that Ernie well stated what almost always happens in reality. Should it be this way? Maybe not, but here we are.


*Kid gloves are not always used.
**Kid gloves sometimes come off eventually.
***Kid gloves sometimes stay on.
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Wade
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:When I was friends with and later dated a Oneness Pentecostal girl, I used to believe similar to Heirbyadoption. So she asked me to come shopping with her and try to find modest outfits. It was not a very successful exercise. After a half hour at the mall, I found 1 thing (after choosing 2 other things which had an immodest “feature” I didn’t notice).

She informed me she already had that item - and then I realised I know at least 2 Mennonite girls with the exact same outfit. A different kind of uniformity...

I used to wonder why she went to Goodwill once or twice a week, until I went with her. Her approach was to comb all the racks for that 1 item that fit properly, wasn’t too short or tight, and wasn’t frumpy.

Perhaps Heir lives in a place where thrift stores are flooded with modest clothing. Well that isn’t the case in Madison Wisconsin or Akron Ohio and I suspect it isn’t most other places outside of a Mennonite stronghold.

Oh - I should add that this poor girl’s clothing wasn’t good enough for some Mennonites, either. Eventually some man confronted her that her skirts weren’t long enough, too tight, and her tops were too tight.

Maybe he was right, but she sure was trying hard. A number of Oneness Pentecostal women are now resorting to making their own clothes and trying to design their own fashions. My friend was learning to be a seamstress because she felt eventually sewing her own clothes would be a better option that storebought.

It’s interesting to observe formerly plain people moving in the opposite direction, and completely confident everything is fine.
That's nice she found time to learn sewing. I could not expect that from my wife as taking care of a large family doesn't leave much time for even fixing hems and etc. nevermind making clothing...
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Josh
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Josh »

Wade, every Mennonite lady with a large family finds time to do those things.

Not saying the same burden should be on seekers, but it’s obviously possible.
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PeterG
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by PeterG »

I'm sure it's a minority, but a significant number of conservative Mennonite women have others do their sewing for them, usually due to lack of time or skill. I know of three women in my area who sew for other conservative Anabaptists for extra money, and there are probably a few others that I don't know about.
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