Plain Dress Evolution

[Soloist]

I do think there is a problem with conservative mennonites being a little detached from how it really is for someone without support to try and make these changes.

I would say Wade that from my experience with my church, they are very loving abet there is a serious cultural divide that causes several annoying confusions... They have asked if they can help my wife with dresses and have made my daughter some new clothes. We have been going for a while now and I do think they are hesitant to offer thinking that its off putting to start pushing modesty... (or should I say, specific dress standards) We already had my wife in dresses modest by the church's standards but they fit more like bags I also think one has to outright ask for help and thats something I would have grown up not doing.
Thankfully I'm not in dire need but getting to church is sometimes a challenge with gas and I'm not exactly financially stable myself.

I think there is something that would bother me far more... they all would say they likely have mistakes in the church or that their doctrine may not be perfect, you can point out teachings from the Bible that are very clear and they take the cultural stand rather than change. I saw this at a liberal mennonite church and at worldly churches.

[silentreader]

Your expectations do not always mean they are reality.

And the Deacons wife coming over and taking all your wife's dresses without telling her why, altering them, and bringing them back while your wife is asking why - can be taken as questioning and therefore unteachable... While another sister in the church is making rumors and lies about suspecting what styles your wife likes or doesn't. - Possibly because your wife is just asking questions and wanting to learn.
Asking "why" doesn't mean we are unteachable or discontent. It's because we want to learn.

I can see why so many people are turned off from the clothing game played. It can be ridiculous, however we stumble along wearing things that make your conference look immodest from what I have seen... No wonder seekers leave so they can focus on the inward instead of the outward, meanwhile dressed more modestly but looked down on...

And the schools maybe one of the biggest blessings but with lack of perception they maybe one of the biggest problems too. Again without support or finances which from my experience Mennonites can't seem to relate to, how seekers are handle is not good. But thanks to a Baptist and an atheist the last week we were sold a car for next to nothing and another little truck we were giving for free with six months of insurance included. We could manage our children making it to school finally if we lived near one

Honestly, I don't wish bad on anyone but for sake of learning, I wish you could've experienced literally forsaking all driving 5400kometers with wife and four children. And then living in a 600sq. ft. one bedroom house sleeping on the floor without a bed or table to eat off. And then got to experience the pain of not eating for a couple days at times trying to provide enough food for your family and make sure your pregnant wife has enough. Working 13hour shifts, while walking 2km back and forth to work in -30 degree Celsius weather in the dark with wolves howling at you. Etc. and etc. Nor do I say this to fault a(the) church - but rather to show perception of some of us seekers...

I am no great man and deserve to suffer for my stupid mistakes but to focus on exact styles while not teaching and to focus on school while people are not eating... Maybe to my fault but you can have all your first world better than the rest of us problems, I'm completely sick of it!!!

Relax, Wade. Reality isn't always a strong point to some. A lot of mothers with large families have help of some kind at least until children are old enough to help.

I'm saddened by the people being turned off of an honest look at scriptures because of people guessing at the others side perception or heart. Making excuses that people are unteachable and etc. can be looking for excuse why I am not at fault. There is little to no one where we live, including our church that isn't saying and teaching that things like Mennonite dress, non-resistance, non-conformity is only about pride and/or control - nothing else. I don't believe that but if we are not careful maybe we will prove them right.

Wade, some of the things said to you have been pretty unfortunate, to put it charitably. Be sure that is not how most of us think, or act, hopefully.

[RZehr]

Your expectations do not always mean they are reality.

And the Deacons wife coming over and taking all your wife's dresses without telling her why, altering them, and bringing them back while your wife is asking why - can be taken as questioning and therefore unteachable... While another sister in the church is making rumors and lies about suspecting what styles your wife likes or doesn't. - Possibly because your wife is just asking questions and wanting to learn.
Asking "why" doesn't mean we are unteachable or discontent. It's because we want to learn.

I can see why so many people are turned off from the clothing game played. It can be ridiculous, however we stumble along wearing things that make your conference look immodest from what I have seen... No wonder seekers leave so they can focus on the inward instead of the outward, meanwhile dressed more modestly but looked down on...

And the schools maybe one of the biggest blessings but with lack of perception they maybe one of the biggest problems too. Again without support or finances which from my experience Mennonites can't seem to relate to, how seekers are handle is not good. But thanks to a Baptist and an atheist the last week we were sold a car for next to nothing and another little truck we were giving for free with six months of insurance included. We could manage our children making it to school finally if we lived near one

Honestly, I don't wish bad on anyone but for sake of learning, I wish you could've experienced literally forsaking all driving 5400kometers with wife and four children. And then living in a 600sq. ft. one bedroom house sleeping on the floor without a bed or table to eat off. And then got to experience the pain of not eating for a couple days at times trying to provide enough food for your family and make sure your pregnant wife has enough. Working 13hour shifts, while walking 2km back and forth to work in -30 degree Celsius weather in the dark with wolves howling at you. Etc. and etc. Nor do I say this to fault a(the) church - but rather to show perception of some of us seekers...

I am no great man and deserve to suffer for my stupid mistakes but to focus on exact styles while not teaching and to focus on school while people are not eating... Maybe to my fault but you can have all your first world better than the rest of us problems, I'm completely sick of it!!!

I believe that when a person has a desire to join a church, they have a biblical right to assistance. The church has a responsibility and privilege of helping meet their needs.
James 2:15,16
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be warmed and filled; not withstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
It is hard sometimes to know where exactly the helping should begin and end, but it is required.

[Wade]

I agree but unfortunately I am not very good at communicating the more important aspect...
When a person can know Christ or want to and then walk into a church where there is dress standard they can't afford or whatever it is confusing to sit or stand amongst brothers and sisters in Christ and sing, "Just as I am."
After this song I have left church thinking what is wrong with me for dropping out of instruction class because I know we can't afford the church standards and don't actually expect handouts to do so.
But I have also come to realize that to some the plain dress has very little to do about modesty and scripture but rather the exacting of it has become more of a social and/or cultural status issue.
We are not interested in social status and don't want to be given things so we can fit a social status or meet the requirements of acceptance.
What about how Jesus recieves us - "Just as I am"?
Please don't see this as an excuse to not conform or to be individualistic but rather to be loved in the body of Christ setting aside social status. If someone can never feel accepted until they meet that status it is likely they will either treat others poorly that don't meet it or they will eventually get tired of it. Because that is just a social club.
I see benefits to exacting standards but there is a list of negatives, and what works to expose a person's heart in these things by how they react in someone raised in it doesn't mean it will work at all the same with a newcomer.

[RZehr]

I understand.

[silentreader]

I agree but unfortunately I am not very good at communicating the more important aspect...
When a person can know Christ or want to and then walk into a church where there is dress standard they can't afford or whatever it is confusing to sit or stand amongst brothers and sisters in Christ and sing, "Just as I am."
After this song I have left church thinking what is wrong with me for dropping out of instruction class because I know we can't afford the church standards and don't actually expect handouts to do so.
But I have also come to realize that to some the plain dress has very little to do about modesty and scripture but rather the exacting of it has become more of a social and/or cultural status issue.
We are not interested in social status and don't want to be given things so we can fit a social status or meet the requirements of acceptance.
What about how Jesus recieves us - "Just as I am"?
Please don't see this as an excuse to not conform or to be individualistic but rather to be loved in the body of Christ setting aside social status. If someone can never feel accepted until they meet that status it is likely they will either treat others poorly that don't meet it or they will eventually get tired of it. Because that is just a social club.
I see benefits to exacting standards but there is a list of negatives, and what works to expose a person's heart in these things by how they react in someone raised in it doesn't mean it will work at all the same with a newcomer.

I think you explained that well, make sure you tell your wife I said so.

[Josh]

Wade,

I don’t think a congregation that does the things you described really is following the New Testament. These things are a big part of the reason I’m Holdeman since there are a lot fewer of these games.

It is important however to let go of the resentment you feel towards your past congregation. In my past congregation, I put up with rumours about me of preying on girls in the youth group, when that didn’t stick, being a homosexual, being an FBI agent spying on Mennonites, and pressured into counselling with an unlicensed counselled who got busy convincing me I’d lost my salvation because I had an “accusing spirit” when I noticed a member having an affair.

Well I still have friends and even visit that congregation. My mother even visits and takes her friends. I believe the folks there are working hard to work thru their problems even if I don’t agree with everything they do.

As far as forsaking wife and children, when I came to the church, I forsook the idea of ever having wife and children (and was rewarded with being suspected of being a fornicator because “Why would a divorced man want to be a member at a plain church?”).

You aren’t alone and all of us have had struggles. But not every church with kapps and cape dresses is cold and godless. Some of the kindest, most generous Christians I know are members in such a church who I know would have gladly helped your family in a time of need.

[Hats Off]

I believe that when a person has a desire to join a church, they have a biblical right to assistance. The church has a responsibility and privilege of helping meet their needs.
James 2:15,16
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be warmed and filled; not withstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
It is hard sometimes to know where exactly the helping should begin and end, but it is required.

Wade, one of our problems is that we don't have experience that prepares us to properly reach out to you. Most Mennonite communities are financially stable to the point that it is difficult relating to actual need. It would appear also that many Mennonites are not comfortable being asked "Why?", especially when the questioner is young or new. Why is taken as a challenge - it appears we feel threatened and become defensive so responses are inadequate.

We had a couple coming to church - they had no difficulty with the dress standards. He was financially able to buy a new suit and hat to fit the standard and she found a sister in the church who helped her with making her dresses and coverings. However they had several health issues and he could not get comfortable without life and health insurance, which made a barrier. We tried to explain our brotherhood practices but he still felt he wasn't providing for his family properly if he had no insurance to provide for them if he were to die young. Apparently we did not want to just say "Come, if that were to be the case, the church would look after your family." We were afraid, I think, that it would have looked as though we were guaranteeing to look after them in order to persuade them to join us. And of course, thrifty Mennonites would not want to encourage dependency.

These are not excuses for the situation you found yourself in but an attempt to understand our own shortcomings in these situations. We have been raised in a community and culture where we are taught self sufficiency even while having a brotherhood where we try to make a brother's cares our own. In our community, a young mother with six children would have some help with the workload.

[appleman2006]

Wade I also want to thank you for how well you explained your situation and the feelings that go with it. I do not have answers for you.

One of the things that I have become convinced about is that no one short of God can be everything to all people but if our churches are interested in reaching out to others we have to learn to be much more flexible in our approach. having said that I am also aware that the minute we become that we will also lose some things that certain people will be looking for if that makes any sense at all.
One thing I have decided and that is that somehow if I am going to be able to help anyone I must become a better listener. And for this old dog that is a tough new trick to learn.

[Wade]

Wade I also want to thank you for how well you explained your situation and the feelings that go with it. I do not have answers for you.

One of the things that I have become convinced about is that no one short of God can be everything to all people but if our churches are interested in reaching out to others we have to learn to be much more flexible in our approach. having said that I am also aware that the minute we become that we will also lose some things that certain people will be looking for if that makes any sense at all.
One thing I have decided and that is that somehow if I am going to be able to help anyone I must become a better listener. And for this old dog that is a tough new trick to learn.

The bolded part is something that turns over in my mind too... It maybe the biggest factor why I often think I should quit MN, quit talking, and just continue living as a Kingdom Christian where we are without apology, trusting God, blessing those cursing us, encouraging those seeking, while being misunderstood by the labels and twisting of words. It does feel the direction we are headed.


(Speaking of twisting of words: Josh, either I come across completely wrong or you really need to stop implying things like you think you understand. My wife isn't right now wearing a kapp but has worn them a bunch and she is almost always in a cape dress - so your statement about those people being cold and godless is absolutely ridiculous and completely the opposite of what I was actually trying to say... )