Plain Dress Evolution

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Heirbyadoption »

We are rather well off the track from where this thread was originally going. I might comment back to the original thought based on the early replies. Some of your experiences or testimonies mirror my own. Among the group we were put out of, and even a bit where we are now, there is a strong push to regulate things more and more strictly in the name of being OLD Order and going back to the ancient order and much talk about our forefathers and returning to the old paths. I don't contest that Anabaptist have historically been "Plain" to some extent, but when one gets to looking at photographs and writings from 50/75/100 (even 150) years ago, much of their "Plainness" was often from utilizing simpler or more economical forms of dress from within the culture they were in rather than creating more specific artificial forms, or inheriting the forms they are now trying to create and set in stone.

A couple examples:
A. My grandparents tell of how people were received into the church by baptism 60-70 years ago and the congregations were encouraged to let the new members wear their clothing out, rather than cracking down on them to immediately conform; now, if you don't have a Plain suit and hat the week you are baptized, or 10 regulation dresses, a bonnet, and a shawl, people throw money at you or hold sewings for you ASAP and you come under scrutiny very, very quickly if you are not promptly conformed.
B. 75 years ago, many of our brethren in PA (traditionally our most "conservative" area of the nation) did not wear broadfalls and beards, but were often beardless and wore bib-overalls and strawhats; today, to be seen without a black hat or broadfall pants can merit you an investigative visit, and perhaps even a "request" that you make an acknowledgment/apology to the congregation, and in the conservative areas, the 5% (literally) of brethren who don't grow their beard are looked at as "independant" or stubborn.
C. Til the day she died, my wife's grandmother in VA (another strongly conservative, but slightly more flexible area) wore a dress with detachable cape and apron, while I grew up with a grandmother who wore sweaters to town and no bonnet; in the last 15 years, to be caught without a cape or apron was worthy of a visit/admonition and certainly got you looked down on, while my own grandmother started wearing her bonnet and shawl to town rain or shine, and her cape out over her sweater if she wore one, due to increasing regulations.

I could do another dozen examples, but I guess I'm curious about a couple things. I'm not suggestion groups must necessarily quit dressing Plain, but I witness a definite movement in strongly Plain groups to create and enforce much strongly regulation and uniformity in the last couple decades. I recognize it may be somewhat in reaction to what they consider drift, but my heart goes out to my people (if I may use the term) whom I have grown up among and lived and loved with, not that they are so conservative, but that the movement is built (or at the very least justified) on a revisionist history, and it has terribly damaging spiritual and relational effects, both upon themselves and others. I'm curious if any of you who have experienced something similar have found ways to effectively have conversations along this line with your loved ones in similar settings.
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Hats Off
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Hats Off »

Yesterday at church a visiting minister talked along these lines; he told of visiting with a young Orthodox (ultra conservative old order) Mennonite minister who shared his concern about where the plain churches are at today. He had a copy of a Benjamin Eby conference report from about 250 years ago in Kitchener, Ontario; it was one paragraph long. Today, we take almost thirty minutes to read our conference report. If something is not listed it is assumed to be okay. The young Orthodox minister said "Is it all about law? Do we really not have more of Jesus?" and our brother echoed that cry. He called for a revival - not necessarily to leave our plain ways but to turn to Jesus "the author and Finisher of our Faith."

The more we make plain dress and other plain ways subject to discipline, the less meaning these things will have for us. We need to be voluntarily obey the structure that is in place. We must be able to say that "we" want to maintain the standards rather than saying this is what the bishops and ministers and deacons have decided for us.
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appleman2006
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by appleman2006 »

silentreader wrote:There's a lot of mention made of Romans 14. Do we need to consider it beside 1 Corinthians 8?
When does tolerance become compromise?
When do we say like Cain, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Absolutely. My point though is that at times I am wondering if our insistence on things being done exactly the same generation after generation especially in dress could not actually be a cause for the weaker among us to stumble. Especially when the things asked seem to be fairly inconsistent with other areas in our lives.

I think most of us agree that clothing issues were a lot bigger deal to us when we were younger. And since usually the younger among us will be the younger Christians why is it that we spend so much time on clothing issues? I have a few theories in regards to that.

I do think that part of the reason us as moderates might have a hard time getting some of these things across to our young people is that we are not very consistent. If we spent even as close to as much time dictating what our homes looked like or what time and money we spend on some of our hobbies as some of us do on dress issues the middle-aged would be up in arms.

I personally am not into micro managing all areas of my brother's life. I really do trust the Holy Spirit to do that. Certainly if I see a corporate need in an area I will speak out. Even an individual need if it is someone that is close to me and I would hope my brothers will do the same. But just as I would be very slow to go to a brother that built a brand new house that was much nicer than anything I would ever consider building so I am not quick to jump on the young brother that may dress a bit more stylish than I would choose to. There is a time to speak truth but particularly when it is a weaker brother or a younger Christian I think we need to be really careful.
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appleman2006
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by appleman2006 »

Hats Off wrote:Yesterday at church a visiting minister talked along these lines; he told of visiting with a young Orthodox (ultra conservative old order) Mennonite minister who shared his concern about where the plain churches are at today. He had a copy of a Benjamin Eby conference report from about 250 years ago in Kitchener, Ontario; it was one paragraph long. Today, we take almost thirty minutes to read our conference report. If something is not listed it is assumed to be okay. The young Orthodox minister said "Is it all about law? Do we really not have more of Jesus?" and our brother echoed that cry. He called for a revival - not necessarily to leave our plain ways but to turn to Jesus "the author and Finisher of our Faith."

The more we make plain dress and other plain ways subject to discipline, the less meaning these things will have for us. We need to be voluntarily obey the structure that is in place. We must be able to say that "we" want to maintain the standards rather than saying this is what the bishops and ministers and deacons have decided for us.
You have no idea how much this post means to me. Frankly I am nearly crying as I read this. Crying for joy that is.
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Josh
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Josh »

Honest question (not trying to argue):

Why not just jump over to the CMC where this kind of thinking is at its logical end, and be happy?
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Josh
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Josh »

Heirbyadoption wrote:We are rather well off the track from where this thread was originally going. I might comment back to the original thought based on the early replies. Some of your experiences or testimonies mirror my own. Among the group we were put out of, and even a bit where we are now, there is a strong push to regulate things more and more strictly in the name of being OLD Order and going back to the ancient order and much talk about our forefathers and returning to the old paths. I don't contest that Anabaptist have historically been "Plain" to some extent, but when one gets to looking at photographs and writings from 50/75/100 (even 150) years ago, much of their "Plainness" was often from utilizing simpler or more economical forms of dress from within the culture they were in rather than creating more specific artificial forms, or inheriting the forms they are now trying to create and set in stone.

A couple examples:
A. My grandparents tell of how people were received into the church by baptism 60-70 years ago and the congregations were encouraged to let the new members wear their clothing out, rather than cracking down on them to immediately conform; now, if you don't have a Plain suit and hat the week you are baptized, or 10 regulation dresses, a bonnet, and a shawl, people throw money at you or hold sewings for you ASAP and you come under scrutiny very, very quickly if you are not promptly conformed.
B. 75 years ago, many of our brethren in PA (traditionally our most "conservative" area of the nation) did not wear broadfalls and beards, but were often beardless and wore bib-overalls and strawhats; today, to be seen without a black hat or broadfall pants can merit you an investigative visit, and perhaps even a "request" that you make an acknowledgment/apology to the congregation, and in the conservative areas, the 5% (literally) of brethren who don't grow their beard are looked at as "independant" or stubborn.
C. Til the day she died, my wife's grandmother in VA (another strongly conservative, but slightly more flexible area) wore a dress with detachable cape and apron, while I grew up with a grandmother who wore sweaters to town and no bonnet; in the last 15 years, to be caught without a cape or apron was worthy of a visit/admonition and certainly got you looked down on, while my own grandmother started wearing her bonnet and shawl to town rain or shine, and her cape out over her sweater if she wore one, due to increasing regulations.

I could do another dozen examples, but I guess I'm curious about a couple things. I'm not suggestion groups must necessarily quit dressing Plain, but I witness a definite movement in strongly Plain groups to create and enforce much strongly regulation and uniformity in the last couple decades. I recognize it may be somewhat in reaction to what they consider drift, but my heart goes out to my people (if I may use the term) whom I have grown up among and lived and loved with, not that they are so conservative, but that the movement is built (or at the very least justified) on a revisionist history, and it has terribly damaging spiritual and relational effects, both upon themselves and others. I'm curious if any of you who have experienced something similar have found ways to effectively have conversations along this line with your loved ones in similar settings.
Heir,

Of particular note is that Holdemans never absorbed “plain dress”; the most distinctive thing in our history was the beard, and it’s been generations since Holdemans wore long beards. There are rumblings from some who are concerned we are heading that way towards a view of plain dress like “other Mennonites”.

Based on what I see going on I can definitely see how plain dress develops and I agree with you that it is basically an invention of the modern era. In our circles, sisters did not even cover full time until two generations ago (although I do think they was a good change).

Holdeman women’s dress styles are a lot more uniform than what I can tell from old photographs (which are rare) and descriptions in Heibert’s book. The older generation also tells me things have changed. Most of them attribute it to “It used to be okay to dress like other Americans, but then the fashions started changing really quickly and women started wearing pants, so we are different now.”
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Ernie
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Ernie »

Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
RZehr
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by RZehr »

Ernie wrote:Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
Lancaster Amish clothes lines
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Ernie wrote:Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
Do tell, dear sir...
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by ken_sylvania »

RZehr wrote:
Ernie wrote:Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
Lancaster Amish clothes lines
Particularly in the spring, when the quilts and rugs are hung out to dry?
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