Plain Dress Evolution

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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silentreader
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by silentreader »

ken_sylvania wrote:
RZehr wrote:
Ernie wrote:Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
Lancaster Amish clothes lines
Particularly in the spring, when the quilts and rugs are hung out to dry?
Those aren't plain though, are they?
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by ken_sylvania »

silentreader wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote:
RZehr wrote: Lancaster Amish clothes lines
Particularly in the spring, when the quilts and rugs are hung out to dry?
Those aren't plain though, are they?
Not particularly, but I thought they might qualify as "repositories" of plain dress "from the last couple hundred years."
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silentreader
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by silentreader »

ken_sylvania wrote:
silentreader wrote:
ken_sylvania wrote: Particularly in the spring, when the quilts and rugs are hung out to dry?
Those aren't plain though, are they?
Not particularly, but I thought they might qualify as "repositories" of plain dress "from the last couple hundred years."
You're right, hooked rugs are sometimes made up of strips of worn out clothes.
I guess I'm not sure exactly what Ernie would refer to as an 'online repository' in this context.
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silentreader
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by silentreader »

Ernie wrote:Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
Something like this?

https://www.pinterest.ca/joelservingjes ... ist-dress/
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Ernie
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Ernie »

silentreader wrote:
Ernie wrote:Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
Something like this?
https://www.pinterest.ca/joelservingjes ... ist-dress/
This is a good start but I would love if there were hundreds or thousands of photos...
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
silentreader
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by silentreader »

Ernie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Ernie wrote:Does anyone know where the largest online repositories are of plain dress from the last couple hundred years?
Something like this?
https://www.pinterest.ca/joelservingjes ... ist-dress/
This is a good start but I would love if there were hundreds or thousands of photos...
A few more

https://www.google.ca/search?q=mennonit ... 9-LxJMhdYM:
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Hats Off
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Hats Off »

Josh wrote:
Of particular note is that Holdemans never absorbed “plain dress”; the most distinctive thing in our history was the beard, and it’s been generations since Holdemans wore long beards. There are rumblings from some who are concerned we are heading that way towards a view of plain dress like “other Mennonites”.

Based on what I see going on I can definitely see how plain dress develops and I agree with you that it is basically an invention of the modern era. In our circles, sisters did not even cover full time until two generations ago (although I do think they was a good change).

Holdeman women’s dress styles are a lot more uniform than what I can tell from old photographs (which are rare) and descriptions in Heibert’s book. The older generation also tells me things have changed. Most of them attribute it to “It used to be okay to dress like other Americans, but then the fashions started changing really quickly and women started wearing pants, so we are different now.”


I would agree with the area I have bolded - when every woman wore a modest dress, it was okay for our women to dress similar to how other women dressed. Today we have trouble with where women's dress styles have gone and there seems to be a need for some order that is not dictated by the fashion industry. To me that also explains why women are more affected by plain dress standards than men are - fashion for men is generally not as immodest as women's is.

It would be preferable if we could request/specify that we all wear "modest" clothing, clothing that is not meant to attract attention to the wearer, whether it be male or female, adult or child. One thing I really find troublesome is when mothers add ribbons, or embroidery or ruffles or whatever to make their daughter's "plain clothes fancy." But it seems we need to define modest. Modest by today's fashion industry is probably not yet what we would consider modest or what was considered modest 75 years ago.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Hats Off wrote: It would be preferable if we could request/specify that we all wear "modest" clothing, clothing that is not meant to attract attention to the wearer, whether it be male or female, adult or child. One thing I really find troublesome is when mothers add ribbons, or embroidery or ruffles or whatever to make their daughter's "plain clothes fancy." But it seems we need to define modest. Modest by today's fashion industry is probably not yet what we would consider modest or what was considered modest 75 years ago.
May I respectfully suggest, after some experimental window shopping by my dear companion and I, that its actually not all that hard to establish a general principle/practice of modesty and find suitable clothing in stores that fall within that principle, and that this could be maintained through good teaching and open communication (even to the point of gently following the Matthew 18 pattern if you or another are stumbling because of someone else). It is actually possible to shop for clothing without being a victim of the contemporary fashion industry and their standards. The issue that usually keeps folks from going this route is rarely the issue of fashion and immodesty, but other basic principles such as uniformity, nonconformity, and apathy (in truth, it's always easier to have an established [and enforceable] form to accomplish any principle).

The kicker is that, to accomplish the former (allowing modest store bought clothing) you would have to remove several of those strictures, including requirements of uniformity in dress, peer pressure toward traditional form, and to some extent, even the common mindset that the aforementioned things are not only beneficial, but perhaps even the best Biblical models/applications, and perhaps even the idea that enforced traditional forms WILL accomplish modesty and nonconformity. Not sure this is do-able in most conservative Anabaptist settings, certainly not the Old Orders and very conservatives.
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Ernie
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Ernie »

Heirbyadoption wrote: May I respectfully suggest, after some experimental window shopping by my dear companion and I, that its actually not all that hard to establish a general principle/practice of modesty and find suitable clothing in stores that fall within that principle, and that this could be maintained through good teaching and open communication (even to the point of gently following the Matthew 18 pattern if you or another are stumbling because of someone else). It is actually possible to shop for clothing without being a victim of the contemporary fashion industry and their standards.
This will only work if everyone in the church thinks this way.

My experience (in an "open communication church") is that sooner or later, the church will get some people who don't see fashion as being all that big a deal. At first they seem to conform to the group norms but then they gradually start making small changes and wait to see if anyone confronts them.

At first no one wants to confront them because no one wants to be accused of being nit picky.

But eventually in an "open communication" church these things do get addressed by those who are care most about such deviations, and sure enough the one being confronted does feel that the one's doing the addressing are being nit picky. After a few years, these addresses start "building up" and the person starts getting a chip on their shoulder.

The other option is to wait until something has gotten really bad and then try to address it, but by then you've left a Trojan horse into the community.
Last edited by Ernie on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
RZehr
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by RZehr »

Ernie wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote: May I respectfully suggest, after some experimental window shopping by my dear companion and I, that its actually not all that hard to establish a general principle/practice of modesty and find suitable clothing in stores that fall within that principle, and that this could be maintained through good teaching and open communication (even to the point of gently following the Matthew 18 pattern if you or another are stumbling because of someone else). It is actually possible to shop for clothing without being a victim of the contemporary fashion industry and their standards.
This will only work if everyone in the church thinks this way.

My experience (in an "open communication church") is that sooner or later, the church will get some people who don't see fashion as being all that big a deal. At first they seem to conform to the group norms but then they gradually start making small changes and wait to see if anyone confronts them.

At first no one wants to confront them because no one wants to be accused of being nit picky.

But eventually in an "open communication" church these things do get addressed by those who are care most about such deviations, and sure enough the one being confronted does feel that the one's doing the addressing are being nit picky. After a few years, these addresses start "building up" and the person starts getting a chip on their soldier.

The other option is to wait until something has gotten really bad and then try to address it, but by then you've left a Trojan horse into the community.
Amen. This is reality speaking here, not theory. :up:
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