Plain Dress Evolution

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Ernie
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote: I know that as a matter of possibility, yes it is possible for someone to buy their clothes and dress modest. As far as whether it is difficult, or more difficult than sewing, I don’t have much experience.
Some ladies love shopping and know how to scan long rows of clothing at thrift stores very fast. They might go to several thrift stores every couple weeks. They don't wait till they need a dress till they go looking or they might not find anything suitable. Some of these ladies will nearly always wear a shirt/blouse on top of whatever dress or blouse they buy, thereby making an otherwise immodest outfit acceptable.

Other ladies go shopping and can't seem to find anything suitable. (Granted their modesty standards are sometimes higher.)
One lady in our church who needed clothing and tried shopping at thrift stores to no avail, said she could have sewn a whole new wardrobe with the amount of time she spent looking in thrift stores. So at the end of all the searching, she had nothing for her time.

My wife would find it easier to sew a dress that she likes than take time to try to find something acceptable that she likes at a thrift store. A person who didn't grow up sewing may not find it this way and that is understandable.

Some people say they cannot afford to pay someone to sew for them. I can believe that. Some families do not have the income or skills training that is necessary to start their own business or get a good paying job.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Ernie
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Ernie »

RZehr wrote:Sometimes they are learned on the subject and would like the church to change its position) on these things, but if they already are acting on what they want instead of having a conversation as a group, what they really want is not a conversation but a change in the churches position to reflect their own preference.
And sometimes they have already adopted changes in order to "force" the conversations. And if the church doesn't accommodate their desire, then they are in a pretty tough position since they already have made changes.
The Apostle Peter seems to have been addressing such situations with his comments on personal appearance. I doubt his exhortation went down any better than what such exhortation does today. It would be really interesting to know what the "violaters" did or said when they got Peter's letter or heard it read in their churches.

But if people back then were like they are now..
1. If they were naive but teachable, they likely responded favorably.
2. If they had a hankering for fashion and a bit of a classy look, they probably got a chip on their shoulder against Peter.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Sudsy
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Sudsy »

Ernie wrote:
RZehr wrote:Sometimes they are learned on the subject and would like the church to change its position) on these things, but if they already are acting on what they want instead of having a conversation as a group, what they really want is not a conversation but a change in the churches position to reflect their own preference.
And sometimes they have already adopted changes in order to "force" the conversations. And if the church doesn't accommodate their desire, then they are in a pretty tough position since they already have made changes.
The Apostle Peter seems to have been addressing such situations with his comments on personal appearance. I doubt his exhortation went down any better than what such exhortation does today. It would be really interesting to know what the "violaters" did or said when they got Peter's letter or heard it read in their churches.

But if people back then were like they are now..
1. If they were naive but teachable, they likely responded favorably.
2. If they had a hankering for fashion and a bit of a classy look, they probably got a chip on their shoulder against Peter.
1 Peter 3:3-4 -

Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.

Imo, Peter was focusing on what are to be the attractive elements of a lady believer. He says here basically it is not about external adornments and gives examples of how ladies get attention by these adornments but rather it is an internal adorning that is reflected externally in their character. Paul's letter to Timothy includes good deeds as the woman's attractive characteristic. Then the focus is on a relationship with God in one's heart that these characteristics outshine any other outward adornments. If the heart is adorned with Christ, these outward things will not take first importance.

If the issue of modest dress is to keep men from sexual lusting, then we men need to get our hearts adorned right too so we don't give way to those fleshly thoughts. Men need to take responsibility for lustful thoughts and not look for some perfect environment to live in. I really wonder if the early churches took Peter's and Paul's messages on these texts and wrote up a list of dress rules for their women. I really doubt it and I think it took varied periods of time for each of them to reflect these godly characteristics.

We have a 'no dress rules' MB church where the women wear women's slacks and all kinds of modern women's wear. Jewelry and hair styles of their choice. I would say that 90+% dress in a modest way (not trying to stand out by outward adornments and/or showing a lot of flesh). The ones, most often the younger folks, and those who first come out of the world and that is all the clothes they currently have, will wear some things that later they will be convicted by the Lord as drawing the wrong kind of attention. I would think we welcome outsiders to come as they are and love them as Jesus loved sinners.

So, I think many are missing the point about outward apparel. These churches in the NT were full of newly converted unchurched people. These verses point out to them where a Christian woman's attractiveness should be and I think we need more of this teaching today and how it is important in how our lights are to shine. When the focus is on heart issues the externals will begin to show more and more in our lives.
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Wade
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:Wade, every Mennonite lady with a large family finds time to do those things.

Not saying the same burden should be on seekers, but it’s obviously possible.
Have you been around Mennonites much?
Do you know the details of every Mennonite ladies life?
Not all of them homeschool without any family that supports their lifestyle or comes over at times to help out or at least watch the children for a time so they can sew. And not all of them grew up sewing clothing to this extent. Nor do all of them have a husband that have made wise financial desicions coupled with a well paying job so they can afford to help support her in this endeavor.

Does every Mennonite lady make there own headcovering?
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Josh
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Josh »

Wade wrote:
Josh wrote:Wade, every Mennonite lady with a large family finds time to do those things.

Not saying the same burden should be on seekers, but it’s obviously possible.
Have you been around Mennonites much?
Do you know the details of every Mennonite ladies life?
Not all of them homeschool without any family that supports their lifestyle or comes over at times to help out or at least watch the children for a time so they can sew. And not all of them grew up sewing clothing to this extent. Nor do all of them have a husband that have made wise financial desicions coupled with a well paying job so they can afford to help support her in this endeavor.

Does every Mennonite lady make there own headcovering?
Every Mennonite lady I have known manages to keep her children and husband clothed. Of course, they have a lot of support to do this.

I don’t expect non-Anabaptist background people to be good at this. I do expect the rest of their congregation to help them learn, and I also expect a seeker to be teachable and willing to change.

I expect a congregation to provide free help to families that don’t make enough money, provided the husband is willing to work. My friends who are single sisters and not Mennonite background tend to get dresses sewn and given to them - sometimes they don’t even know from whom. But that means being content with the style you receive.

I don’t expect anyone to homeschool. I think a congregation should operate a school and should admit pupils of parents who are sincere seekers.
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Josh
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Josh »

Does every Mennonite lady make there own headcovering?
Ones with complex, see-through style designs do not. Simpler styles are very easy to make, which is why I support them.

In my congregation, if a woman can’t make her own cap, someone else makes it for her. In mission settings we allow more variety of styles, or else use whatever the local style is women already wear, and just stick to that.
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Hats Off
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Hats Off »

In our setting with the cap style of covering more sisters do not make their own coverings than do. And, Wade, Geri should not feel inferior because she can't do everything that a girl can that was raised in a Mennonite home where she started helping with the garden and cooking and baking and sewing ever since she was a little girl. When Mother doesn't have time for her, Grandmother or aunt or older sister will help her learn. They say it takes a community to raise a family; I think from what I can detect, you are doing very well in your situation. There are probably some things your wife could teach Mennonite girls as well.
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Wade
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Wade »

Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:
Josh wrote:Wade, every Mennonite lady with a large family finds time to do those things.

Not saying the same burden should be on seekers, but it’s obviously possible.
Have you been around Mennonites much?
Do you know the details of every Mennonite ladies life?
Not all of them homeschool without any family that supports their lifestyle or comes over at times to help out or at least watch the children for a time so they can sew. And not all of them grew up sewing clothing to this extent. Nor do all of them have a husband that have made wise financial desicions coupled with a well paying job so they can afford to help support her in this endeavor.

Does every Mennonite lady make there own headcovering?
Every Mennonite lady I have known manages to keep her children and husband clothed. Of course, they have a lot of support to do this.

I don’t expect non-Anabaptist background people to be good at this. I do expect the rest of their congregation to help them learn, and I also expect a seeker to be teachable and willing to change.

I expect a congregation to provide free help to families that don’t make enough money, provided the husband is willing to work. My friends who are single sisters and not Mennonite background tend to get dresses sewn and given to them - sometimes they don’t even know from whom. But that means being content with the style you receive.

I don’t expect anyone to homeschool. I think a congregation should operate a school and should admit pupils of parents who are sincere seekers.
Your expectations do not always mean they are reality.

And the Deacons wife coming over and taking all your wife's dresses without telling her why, altering them, and bringing them back while your wife is asking why - can be taken as questioning and therefore unteachable... While another sister in the church is making rumors and lies about suspecting what styles your wife likes or doesn't. - Possibly because your wife is just asking questions and wanting to learn.
Asking "why" doesn't mean we are unteachable or discontent. It's because we want to learn. :roll:

I can see why so many people are turned off from the clothing game played. It can be ridiculous, however we stumble along wearing things that make your conference look immodest from what I have seen... :roll: No wonder seekers leave so they can focus on the inward instead of the outward, meanwhile dressed more modestly but looked down on... :?

And the schools maybe one of the biggest blessings but with lack of perception they maybe one of the biggest problems too. Again without support or finances which from my experience Mennonites can't seem to relate to, how seekers are handle is not good. But thanks to a Baptist and an atheist the last week we were sold a car for next to nothing and another little truck we were giving for free with six months of insurance included. We could manage our children making it to school finally if we lived near one :P

Honestly, I don't wish bad on anyone but for sake of learning, I wish you could've experienced literally forsaking all driving 5400kometers with wife and four children. And then living in a 600sq. ft. one bedroom house sleeping on the floor without a bed or table to eat off. And then got to experience the pain of not eating for a couple days at times trying to provide enough food for your family and make sure your pregnant wife has enough. Working 13hour shifts, while walking 2km back and forth to work in -30 degree Celsius weather in the dark with wolves howling at you. Etc. and etc. Nor do I say this to fault a(the) church - but rather to show perception of some of us seekers...

I am no great man and deserve to suffer for my stupid mistakes but to focus on exact styles while not teaching and to focus on school while people are not eating... Maybe to my fault but you can have all your first world better than the rest of us problems, I'm completely sick of it!!!
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silentreader
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by silentreader »

Wade wrote:
Josh wrote:
Wade wrote:
Have you been around Mennonites much?
Do you know the details of every Mennonite ladies life?
Not all of them homeschool without any family that supports their lifestyle or comes over at times to help out or at least watch the children for a time so they can sew. And not all of them grew up sewing clothing to this extent. Nor do all of them have a husband that have made wise financial desicions coupled with a well paying job so they can afford to help support her in this endeavor.

Does every Mennonite lady make there own headcovering?
Every Mennonite lady I have known manages to keep her children and husband clothed. Of course, they have a lot of support to do this.

I don’t expect non-Anabaptist background people to be good at this. I do expect the rest of their congregation to help them learn, and I also expect a seeker to be teachable and willing to change.

I expect a congregation to provide free help to families that don’t make enough money, provided the husband is willing to work. My friends who are single sisters and not Mennonite background tend to get dresses sewn and given to them - sometimes they don’t even know from whom. But that means being content with the style you receive.

I don’t expect anyone to homeschool. I think a congregation should operate a school and should admit pupils of parents who are sincere seekers.
Your expectations do not always mean they are reality.

And the Deacons wife coming over and taking all your wife's dresses without telling her why, altering them, and bringing them back while your wife is asking why - can be taken as questioning and therefore unteachable... While another sister in the church is making rumors and lies about suspecting what styles your wife likes or doesn't. - Possibly because your wife is just asking questions and wanting to learn.
Asking "why" doesn't mean we are unteachable or discontent. It's because we want to learn. :roll:

I can see why so many people are turned off from the clothing game played. It can be ridiculous, however we stumble along wearing things that make your conference look immodest from what I have seen... :roll: No wonder seekers leave so they can focus on the inward instead of the outward, meanwhile dressed more modestly but looked down on... :?

And the schools maybe one of the biggest blessings but with lack of perception they maybe one of the biggest problems too. Again without support or finances which from my experience Mennonites can't seem to relate to, how seekers are handle is not good. But thanks to a Baptist and an atheist the last week we were sold a car for next to nothing and another little truck we were giving for free with six months of insurance included. We could manage our children making it to school finally if we lived near one :P

Honestly, I don't wish bad on anyone but for sake of learning, I wish you could've experienced literally forsaking all driving 5400kometers with wife and four children. And then living in a 600sq. ft. one bedroom house sleeping on the floor without a bed or table to eat off. And then got to experience the pain of not eating for a couple days at times trying to provide enough food for your family and make sure your pregnant wife has enough. Working 13hour shifts, while walking 2km back and forth to work in -30 degree Celsius weather in the dark with wolves howling at you. Etc. and etc. Nor do I say this to fault a(the) church - but rather to show perception of some of us seekers...

I am no great man and deserve to suffer for my stupid mistakes but to focus on exact styles while not teaching and to focus on school while people are not eating... Maybe to my fault but you can have all your first world better than the rest of us problems, I'm completely sick of it!!!
Relax, Wade. Reality isn't always a strong point to some. A lot of mothers with large families have help of some kind at least until children are old enough to help.
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Wade
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Re: Plain Dress Evolution

Post by Wade »

silentreader wrote:
Wade wrote:
Josh wrote:
Every Mennonite lady I have known manages to keep her children and husband clothed. Of course, they have a lot of support to do this.

I don’t expect non-Anabaptist background people to be good at this. I do expect the rest of their congregation to help them learn, and I also expect a seeker to be teachable and willing to change.

I expect a congregation to provide free help to families that don’t make enough money, provided the husband is willing to work. My friends who are single sisters and not Mennonite background tend to get dresses sewn and given to them - sometimes they don’t even know from whom. But that means being content with the style you receive.

I don’t expect anyone to homeschool. I think a congregation should operate a school and should admit pupils of parents who are sincere seekers.
Your expectations do not always mean they are reality.

And the Deacons wife coming over and taking all your wife's dresses without telling her why, altering them, and bringing them back while your wife is asking why - can be taken as questioning and therefore unteachable... While another sister in the church is making rumors and lies about suspecting what styles your wife likes or doesn't. - Possibly because your wife is just asking questions and wanting to learn.
Asking "why" doesn't mean we are unteachable or discontent. It's because we want to learn. :roll:

I can see why so many people are turned off from the clothing game played. It can be ridiculous, however we stumble along wearing things that make your conference look immodest from what I have seen... :roll: No wonder seekers leave so they can focus on the inward instead of the outward, meanwhile dressed more modestly but looked down on... :?

And the schools maybe one of the biggest blessings but with lack of perception they maybe one of the biggest problems too. Again without support or finances which from my experience Mennonites can't seem to relate to, how seekers are handle is not good. But thanks to a Baptist and an atheist the last week we were sold a car for next to nothing and another little truck we were giving for free with six months of insurance included. We could manage our children making it to school finally if we lived near one :P

Honestly, I don't wish bad on anyone but for sake of learning, I wish you could've experienced literally forsaking all driving 5400kometers with wife and four children. And then living in a 600sq. ft. one bedroom house sleeping on the floor without a bed or table to eat off. And then got to experience the pain of not eating for a couple days at times trying to provide enough food for your family and make sure your pregnant wife has enough. Working 13hour shifts, while walking 2km back and forth to work in -30 degree Celsius weather in the dark with wolves howling at you. Etc. and etc. Nor do I say this to fault a(the) church - but rather to show perception of some of us seekers...

I am no great man and deserve to suffer for my stupid mistakes but to focus on exact styles while not teaching and to focus on school while people are not eating... Maybe to my fault but you can have all your first world better than the rest of us problems, I'm completely sick of it!!!
Relax, Wade. Reality isn't always a strong point to some. A lot of mothers with large families have help of some kind at least until children are old enough to help.
I'm saddened by the people being turned off of an honest look at scriptures because of people guessing at the others side perception or heart. Making excuses that people are unteachable and etc. can be looking for excuse why I am not at fault. There is little to no one where we live, including our church that isn't saying and teaching that things like Mennonite dress, non-resistance, non-conformity is only about pride and/or control - nothing else. I don't believe that but if we are not careful maybe we will prove them right.
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