Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Heirbyadoption
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Heirbyadoption »

appleman2006 wrote:But yes if you are looking for a place where everything is seen in black and white (or red) and where you no longer have to make any of your own decisions as to what God's wants in your life, than the moderate setting is not for you. It will also not be for you if you will be disappointed that everyone does not have exactly the same convictions in all areas that you do.
This very well addresses my honest concern for seekers coming into Anabaptism (usually regardless at what point of the Anabaptist spectrum), especially as I mingle across several online forums relating to them. I see them setting up (or being set up) for either great disappointment or constant conflict as they sincerely seek a better place than where they come from, but with so many of their expectations and idealism that I have encountered seeming to generally fall with the above-quoted description, even if they might articulate it a bit differently. :(
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Ernie
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Ernie »

It is true that some seekers would like a church where everything is nearly the same. I don't have any energy for helping them achieve that goal other than to direct them to a church where they can experience something like this.

What the majority of level-headed seekers that I interact with are looking for is a church that has a clear vision for advancing the Kingdom of God.

They are not looking for one that is gradually transitioning from Godly values to one with worldly values. They don't want a church that is professing to be separated unto God, while functionally moving in the direction of loving more and more of this world. They came from there and have no desire to be part of something that is transitioning to what they left.

Neither are they interested in being part of isolationist churches that are hindering seekers from coming to God because of rigid cultural barriers and sectarianism.

They all want a church that they can recommend to their family and friends.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
PeterG
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by PeterG »

appleman2006 wrote:
Josh wrote:It’s hard to describe how difficult this is for seekers to figure out. Are we supposed to keep our red sportbike or not?
If you were joining our group it would all depend. It would depend on why you had the bike in the first place. What was in your heart that determined you needed a bike and since at least initially no one would know those reasons for sure except for you, no one would tell you to get rid of it. Now perhaps after you had been a part of our group for a number of years and it became very evident that it was a major idol to you, than it might be that some brother, hopefully one you had come to love and appreciate would kindly inquire as to your need of a bike. And your reaction to that would probably say volumes about what is in your heart.

But yes if you are looking for a place where everything is seen in black and white (or red) and where you no longer have to make any of your own decisions as to what God's wants in your life, than the moderate setting is not for you. It will also not be for you if you will be disappointed that everyone does not have exactly the same convictions in all areas that you do.
Thing is, in our moderate conservative churches (which includes my church) some things absolutely are black and white. For every "sportbike" issue to which your very reasonable assessment would apply there are three other things that are unquestionably acceptable or unaccceptable without being, from an outider's perspective, any more or less significant than "sportbikes," and often without being explicitly or formally defined as acceptable/unacceptable. Activity a is prohibited, and activity b is permitted; my "sportbike" seems a lot like activity a, but activity b seems "worse" than my "sportbike." And after finding out that article of clothing x is mandatory and grooming habit y is forbidden, it seems like my "sportbike" must surely matter one way or the other.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you personally are to blame for any of this, but just that the confusion Josh describes is real and justifiable.
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appleman2006
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

Ernie wrote:It is true that some seekers would like a church where everything is nearly the same. I don't have any energy for helping them achieve that goal other than to direct them to a church where they can experience something like this.

What the majority of level-headed seekers that I interact with are looking for is a church that has a clear vision for advancing the Kingdom of God.

They are not looking for one that is gradually transitioning from Godly values to one with worldly values. They don't want a church that is professing to be separated unto God, while functionally moving in the direction of loving more and more of this world. They came from there and have no desire to be part of something that is transitioning to what they left.

Neither are they interested in being part of isolationist churches that are hindering seekers from coming to God because of rigid cultural barriers and sectarianism.

They all want a church that they can recommend to their family and friends.
Really interesting observation Ernie. I think the challenge lies in finding something between that 3rd and 4th paragraph which I happen to believe is also what many of our own people want even if they could not articulate it exactly like that. It certainly is what I personally have been looking for and trying to speak out for, for a long time. But I sometimes despair in that when I try to avoid paragraph 4 I get accused of pushing the church towards paragraph 3.
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appleman2006
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

PeterG wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:
Josh wrote:It’s hard to describe how difficult this is for seekers to figure out. Are we supposed to keep our red sportbike or not?
If you were joining our group it would all depend. It would depend on why you had the bike in the first place. What was in your heart that determined you needed a bike and since at least initially no one would know those reasons for sure except for you, no one would tell you to get rid of it. Now perhaps after you had been a part of our group for a number of years and it became very evident that it was a major idol to you, than it might be that some brother, hopefully one you had come to love and appreciate would kindly inquire as to your need of a bike. And your reaction to that would probably say volumes about what is in your heart.

But yes if you are looking for a place where everything is seen in black and white (or red) and where you no longer have to make any of your own decisions as to what God's wants in your life, than the moderate setting is not for you. It will also not be for you if you will be disappointed that everyone does not have exactly the same convictions in all areas that you do.
Thing is, in our moderate conservative churches (which includes my church) some things absolutely are black and white. For every "sportbike" issue to which your very reasonable assessment would apply there are three other things that are unquestionably acceptable or unaccceptable without being, from an outider's perspective, any more or less significant than "sportbikes," and often without being explicitly or formally defined as acceptable/unacceptable. Activity a is prohibited, and activity b is permitted; my "sportbike" seems a lot like activity a, but activity b seems "worse" than my "sportbike." And after finding out that article of clothing x is mandatory and grooming habit y is forbidden, it seems like my "sportbike" must surely matter one way or the other.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you personally are to blame for any of this, but just that the confusion Josh describes is real and justifiable.
I do understand the confusion. Some of the things that we do or ask of our members have deep cultural reasons or sometimes even political reasons that are very confusing to newcomers. I get that. By political I mean where compromises are made on various things and certain things are kept in place simply out of respect of one or two long time attending families. Added to that I have noticed an almost fundamentalist mindset in a lot of seekers. They do not like where their fundamentalist evangelical church has gone and they come into our settings expecting a similar mindset or way of doing things to simply hold lines that they wish their former church had held on too. That mindset actually really scares me because we have too much of that mindset already built into our circles IMO. A case in point is KJV onlyism but there are many others.
And this does not even necessarily take into account those that are simply looking for a closed safe tight knit community to raise their children. And are disappointed when they find that no group out there will get them totally away from worldly influence.
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Josh
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Josh »

Part of the challenge is, we would like to be accepted and not looked down on.

But it’s basically at random how to do that. One would definitely need to quit watching broadcast TV and sports events yet one could also continue to follow them and watch it streaming on a laptop.

That kind of stuff is hard for seekers to navigate.
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Ernie
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Ernie »

appleman2006 wrote:But yes I will admit I would of fit in quite well personally at those weddings. Not everything done there would of been my personal choice but had I been a guest I would of been rejoicing with then in their day and probably spent very little time worrying about exactly how they looked or how they did things. I suppose that makes me pretty progressive.
appleman2006 wrote: I think the challenge lies in finding something between that 3rd and 4th paragraph which I happen to believe is also what many of our own people want even if they could not articulate it exactly like that. It certainly is what I personally have been looking for and trying to speak out for, for a long time.
If you fit in well at the weddings posted earlier, then I don't think we are looking for the same thing. I think I am probably looking for the third point of a triangle and not something in between paragraph 3 and 4.
appleman2006 wrote:But I sometimes despair in that when I try to avoid paragraph 4 I get accused of pushing the church towards paragraph 3.
So I am going to be really candid here...

As long as someone "fits in quite well" at churches with plain suits, cape dresses, and head coverings - with the same folks also either tolerating or participating in fashionable clothing and Harley adoration - the world (plus basically all other Christians outside of your constituency) will just shake their heads and wonder how such a hybrid ever came to be.
Most of the next generation within the constituency will wonder the same thing and won't be ok with it.
That is why I think this constituency is transitional and why only one generation (or at the most two) is interested in continuing on with this worldview.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
silentreader
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by silentreader »

Ernie wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:But yes I will admit I would of fit in quite well personally at those weddings. Not everything done there would of been my personal choice but had I been a guest I would of been rejoicing with then in their day and probably spent very little time worrying about exactly how they looked or how they did things. I suppose that makes me pretty progressive.
appleman2006 wrote: I think the challenge lies in finding something between that 3rd and 4th paragraph which I happen to believe is also what many of our own people want even if they could not articulate it exactly like that. It certainly is what I personally have been looking for and trying to speak out for, for a long time.
If you fit in well at the weddings posted earlier, then I don't think we are looking for the same thing. I think I am probably looking for the third point of a triangle and not something in between paragraph 3 and 4.
appleman2006 wrote:But I sometimes despair in that when I try to avoid paragraph 4 I get accused of pushing the church towards paragraph 3.
So I am going to be really candid here...

As long as someone "fits in quite well" at churches with plain suits, cape dresses, and head coverings - with the same folks also either tolerating or participating in fashionable clothing and Harley adoration - the world (plus basically all other Christians outside of your constituency) will just shake their heads and wonder how such a hybrid ever came to be.
Most of the next generation within the constituency will wonder the same thing and won't be ok with it.
That is why I think this constituency is transitional and why only one generation (or at the most two) is interested in continuing on with this worldview.



Unfortunately that is already becoming obvious.
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appleman2006
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

I can't speak for that group. I am guessing there were a lot of people at that wedding that were not part of that group. Even some of those taking part.
But in my case I am part of a group that has never demanded the straight cut suit and so a wedding party that looks like that being married by a minister in a straight cut suit does not look strange to me at all. Things like that happened 30 years ago already around here.
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Josh
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Josh »

When I was at a moderate conservative church, a constant source of pain for me was explaining to visitors and new seekers why some people wear strange clothes. There’s just really no good way at all to get the point across.
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