Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Ernie
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Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Ernie »

This is a thread to discuss Moderate-Conservative Mennonite Churches as categorized by Stephen Scott in his book, An Introduction to Older and Conservative Mennonite Groups.

This designation would include conferences and fellowships such as:

Cumberland Valley Mennonite Church (CV)
Mid-Atlantic Mennonite Fellowship (MAF)
Midwest Mennonite Fellowship (MW)
South Atlantic Mennonite Conference (SA)
Southeastern Mennonite Conference (SMC)

Post Secondary Schools: Maranatha Bible School (MN); Sharon Mennonite Bible Institute (PA); Faith Builders Educational Programs

Moderate Conservatives-
These folks would wear even bigger flowered dresses, smaller head coverings, and the designs of their dresses would tend to change based on the styles at J C Penny. However the majority of these churches would still require the ladies to wear cape dresses.
During the week, (when the weather is cool) you probably could not distinguish the men from anybody else in town. These folks would be allowed to use radios, and there would be no discouragement for reading Readers Digest, but these churches would not allow TV.
These folks would be allowed to participate in various types of modern sports such as skiing and golfing at public recreational places. Youth spend a lot of time socializing and playing volleyball together. Moderate-conservatives would allow contemporary music and most any kind of musical instruments.
The men in these groups might wear a straight cut (plain) suitcoat on Sunday morning and a Hawaiian party suit that evening at a social. The ladies might wear a dress based on a 16th century pattern but wear high heels and comb their exposed hair similar to the current Hollywood styles. When compared with intermediate conservatives, moderate conservative dresses are sometimes less modest: more form fitting, lower necklines, shorter sleeves, etc., however they are still home-sewn cape dresses.
Internet is generally accepted and members are typically encouraged to have guidelines, accountability, and/or filters in place, especially in their homes. The reasoning is that people will find junk or porn if they really want to, and so it is better to teach people how to use it responsibly.

The dominant peer-pressure in a moderate-conservative setting is to be "Biblical" and to have limited extra-biblical requirements. In moderate-conservative churches there is generally an element that feels that there should be no extra-biblical standards. (e.g. straight cut coats for men)
Since 1847, this category has been very transitional. Individuals, congregations, and constituencies are in constant flux with many people joining and many people moving on towards more evangelical style churches. This migration includes a sizable percentage of youth and young married’s.
In contrast to ultra-conservatives and intermediate conservatives, moderate conservative churches typically have an element within the church that does not follow the church standards or an element that votes is favor of removing standards that are deemed legalistic or out of date. Over the decades there is a slight tug of war between the traditionalists and the progressives until one segment of the church gets some momentum going and starts dragging the other segment with it. This often results in a schism.


Moderate Conservatives 1

Moderate Conservatives 2

Moderate Conservatives 3
Last edited by justme on Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix typo per request
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Ernie wrote:This is a thread to discuss Moderate-Conservative Mennonite Churches as categorized by Stephen Scott in his book, An Introduction to Older and Conservative Mennonite Groups.

This designation would include conferences and fellowships such as:

Cumberland Valley Mennonite Church (CV)
Mid-Atlantic Mennonite Fellowship (MAF)
Midwest Mennonite Fellowship (MW)
South Atlantic Mennonite Conference (SA)
Southeastern Mennonite Conference (SMC)

Post Secondary Schools: Maranatha Bible School (MN); Sharon Mennonite Bible Institute (PA); Faith Builders Educational Programs

Moderate Conservatives-
These folks would wear even bigger flowered dresses, smaller head coverings, and the designs of their dresses would tend to change based on the styles at J C Penny. However the majority of these churches would still require the ladies to wear cape dresses.
During the week, (when the weather is cool) you probably could not distinguish the men from anybody else in town. These folks would be allowed to use radios, and there would be no discouragement for reading Readers Digest, but these churches would not allow TV.
These folks would be allowed to participate in various types of modern sports such as skiing and golfing at public recreational places. Youth spend a lot of time socializing and playing volleyball together. Moderate-conservatives would allow contemporary music and most any kind of musical instruments.
The men in these groups might wear a straight cut (plain) suitcoat on Sunday morning and a Hawaiian party suit that evening at a social. The ladies might wear a dress based on a 16th century pattern but wear high heels and comb their exposed hair similar to the current Hollywood styles. When compared with intermediate conservatives, moderate conservative dresses are sometimes less modest: more form fitting, lower necklines, shorter sleeves, etc., however they are still home-sewn cape dresses.
Internet is generally accepted and members are typically encouraged to have guidelines, accountability, and/or filters in place, especially in their homes. The reasoning is that people will find junk or porn if they really want to, and so it is better to teach people how to use it responsibly.

The dominant peer-pressure in a moderate-conservative setting is to be "Biblical" and to have limited extra-biblical requirements. In moderate-conservative churches there is generally an element that feels that there should be no extra-biblical standards. (e.g. straight cut coats for men)
Since 1847, this category has been very transitional. Individuals, congregations, and constituencies are in constant flux with many people joining and many people moving on towards more evangelical style churches. This migration includes a sizable percentage of youth and young married’s.
In contrast to ultra-conservatives and intermediate conservatives, moderate conservative churches typically have an element within the church that does not follow the church standards or an element that votes is favor of removing standards that are deemed legalistic or our of date. Over the decades there is a slight tug of war between the traditionalists and the progressives until one segment of the church gets some momentum going and starts dragging the other segment with it. This often results in a schism.


Moderate Conservatives 1

Moderate Conservatives 2

Moderate Conservatives 3
Is this where you would put Keystone?

J.M.
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Josh
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Josh »

I would definitely put some of Keystone (eg York) in the Moderate category, not the Progressive category.
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appleman2006
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

Ernie wrote:Since 1847, this category has been very transitional. Individuals, congregations, and constituencies are in constant flux with many people joining and many people moving on towards more evangelical style churches. This migration includes a sizable percentage of youth and young married’s.
I am assuming this date is a typo as none of these groups were around in 1847 let alone 1947. Most of these groups had their beginnings in the 1970's
The rest of this paragraph is of particular interest to me though as I think it goes a long way to helping to explain where many of these groups are at. For transparency purposes I should add that this is the group that I have been a member of all of my adult life although I will readily admit that my practices and views would probably be on the more progressive end of this group.
As Ernie stated the vast majority of members joining this group come from other more conservative groups, either the intermediate, ultra or even old order groups. However if you go back to the seventies many of the original churches had a high percentage of members that came away from groups that were heading in a more progressive direction. IMO this is at least part of the reason that you see such a difference between churches within this group and even from members within churches. There is the constant push pull tension between those that see the huge dangers of legalism and those that see every little change as the first step down the slippery slope. Where there is a strong degree of love and respect this diversity can actually prove to be very healthy. However when people feel their concerns are not listened to they often give up in despair of finding the spiritual home they were hoping to and they move on. Anytime a church tries to aggressively hold a tight line a group of it's members start to see some of the very things they had hoped they had left in their past and it scares them.
I will also say that it is not unusual for people to come out of a more conservative setting where they had previously been able to get by, by simply making sure everything appeared alright on the outside to move into a more moderate setting and discover that that may not work quite as well here. Suddenly they are confronted with internal issues that they had always been able to appease in their own thinking at least, with the satisfaction that at least they were obeying all the church rules.
I may have more to add later if anyone is interested.
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Ernie
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Ernie »

appleman2006 wrote:
Ernie wrote:Since 1847, this category has been very transitional. Individuals, congregations, and constituencies are in constant flux with many people joining and many people moving on towards more evangelical style churches. This migration includes a sizable percentage of youth and young married’s.
I am assuming this date is a typo as none of these groups were around in 1847 let alone 1947. Most of these groups had their beginnings in the 1970's
1847 is the date when John Oberholtzer led the way in breaking away from the main Mennonite body in America and starting a new group that was more moderate. It was called East Pennsylvania Conference. As John went around the country setting up "dealerships" of his moderate flavor, the movement morphed into what became known as the General Conference Mennonite Church. East Pennsylvania Conference became Eastern District Conference. Prior to this, moderates and intermediates and ultras all worshipped together on Sunday morning from what I can tell. And yes, I agree with you that this when people can do this, it is a blessing to all.

But then as these moderates became progressive conservatives, and then theological conservatives, and then beyond, other groups of Mennonites took their place for awhile as they also transitioned towards more acculturated lifestyles.

You are right though that the plethora of groups started in the 1970's, however most of the moderates today would have been similar to intermediates back then in terms of standards.
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appleman2006
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

So if John Oberholtzer's group can be liked to the moderates than I am supposing John Stauffer's group could be likened to the ultra's and John Holdermann's group to the intermediates. :) Interesting logic.

Anyway I am not sure you can make that exact comparison. I certainly would of described Oberholtzer as a progressive for his time.
At best it is a real leap of logic to say that any of these groups had their origins and in anyway can be connected to the splits of the mid 1800's. Rather I would say all of these groups were heavily influenced by the fundamentalist turn that the old Mennonite church took in the first 3 decades of the 20th century.
Expecting that any group will stay exactly the same in practice is a sure way to establish a culture but does very little to ensure spirituality.
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lesterb
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by lesterb »

appleman2006 wrote:So if John Oberholtzer's group can be liked to the moderates than I am supposing John Stauffer's group could be likened to the ultra's and John Holdermann's group to the intermediates. :) Interesting logic.

Anyway I am not sure you can make that exact comparison. I certainly would of described Oberholtzer as a progressive for his time.
At best it is a real leap of logic to say that any of these groups had their originals and in anyway can be connected to the splits of the mid 1800's. Rather I would say all of these groups were heavily influenced by the fundamentalist turn that the old Mennonite church took in the first 3 decades of the 20th century.
Expecting that any group will stay exactly the same in practice is a sure way to establish a culture but does very little to ensure spirituality.
And don't forget John Kaufman of sleeping preacher fame. What is it with all these "Johns" in church history?
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote: And don't forget John Kaufman of sleeping preacher fame. What is it with all these "Johns" in church history?
And so what category of Mennoniteism was John Howard Yoder from ?
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Ernie
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Ernie »

lesterb wrote:And don't forget John Kaufman of sleeping preacher fame. What is it with all these "Johns" in church history?
And John S. Coffman and John F. Funk, and John D. Brunk...
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Re: Moderate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Hats Off »

And John Horsch and John Mosemann...
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