Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
cmbl
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by cmbl »

Ernie wrote: Short sleeve shirts for men are quite acceptable for non-formal events as well as light colored pants.
Our bishop teaches against light colored pants. But the young men wear them anyway, even to the minister's house. So the transition is well on its way.
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Roger
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Roger »

Our bishop teaches against light colored pants. But the young men wear them anyway, even to the minister's house. So the transition is well on its way.
Prime example of why preaching "things" never works. We must get to the heart of the matter, why do we do the things we do? And exercise Romans 14, not flaunt our liberty in some outlandish style, neither judge our brother if he doesn't do exactly the same as I do.
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Ernie
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Ernie »

cmbl wrote:
Ernie wrote: Short sleeve shirts for men are quite acceptable for non-formal events as well as light colored pants.
Our bishop teaches against light colored pants. But the young men wear them anyway, even to the minister's house. So the transition is well on its way.
I care more about the precedent this sets and the mentality this represents then about the issue itself.

This problem, I think, would be a distinguishing difference between intermediates and ultras. In most ultra churches I know, if the ordained folks preach against something, the majority take the admonition quite seriously with some going home and making changes the week following. In more transitional groups, there is more of a "take it or leave it" mentality, especially if there is a sizeable element in the group that doesn't agree with what is being promoted.
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RZehr
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by RZehr »

Ernie wrote: This problem, I think, would be a distinguishing difference between intermediates and ultras. In most ultra churches I know, if the ordained folks preach against something, the majority take the admonition quite seriously with some going home and making changes the week following. In more transitional groups, there is more of a "take it or leave it" mentality, especially if there is a sizeable element in the group that doesn't agree with what is being promoted.
I agree with this. I clearly remember when a request from the preachers was taken quite seriously. It was pretty much a given that most people would honor the request made. While I'd say the majority would still operate like this, there are pockets where the preacher can preach till he is blue in the face and nothing would change. In these pockets, the thinking is that the preacher is not a king, he is one of us, so unless the rest of the church agrees on the issue then you don't necessarily have to do what is asked. In fact maybe you shouldn't do what is asked, because that encourages dictatorial leadership.
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appleman2006
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

The idea that a minister can actually dictate something extra Biblical without a strong church mandate may actually be a very important distinction between the ultras and the moderates.
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appleman2006
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

Roger wrote:
Our bishop teaches against light colored pants. But the young men wear them anyway, even to the minister's house. So the transition is well on its way.
Prime example of why preaching "things" never works. We must get to the heart of the matter, why do we do the things we do? And exercise Romans 14, not flaunt our liberty in some outlandish style, neither judge our brother if he doesn't do exactly the same as I do.
Roger you make several very good points. Interestingly enough I also referred to Romans 14 in another thread before having read this.
I really do believe that any group that cannot articulate well why they do what they do will be in big danger of loosing it. and one of those reasons may in fact be that we do some things to in fact protect the weaker brother or sister. But I think we also have to be careful that we do not ask things of our people that actually have the effect of hurting our weaker brothers and sisters such as asking things of them that cannot be well articulated. And your last point is well taken. Until we finally learn to accept the fact that uniformity does not lead to unity and that unity can in fact happen between people that do not all look exactly alike we will continue to have major splits every 10 to 30 years and we will eventually split ourselves to death.

Frankly I am really sick of it.
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Wade
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Wade »

appleman2006 wrote:The idea that a minister can actually dictate something extra Biblical without a strong church mandate may actually be a very important distinction between the ultras and the moderates.
This helpful for us newcomers. Our rose colored glasses can be so thick that we(I) didn't even consider that people were doing things because they had to, and rather thought it was because they all agreed on these things together and wanted to...
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Roger
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Roger »

appleman2006 wrote:
Roger wrote:
Our bishop teaches against light colored pants. But the young men wear them anyway, even to the minister's house. So the transition is well on its way.
Prime example of why preaching "things" never works. We must get to the heart of the matter, why do we do the things we do? And exercise Romans 14, not flaunt our liberty in some outlandish style, neither judge our brother if he doesn't do exactly the same as I do.
Roger you make several very good points. Interestingly enough I also referred to Romans 14 in another thread before having read this.
I really do believe that any group that cannot articulate well why they do what they do will be in big danger of loosing it. and one of those reasons may in fact be that we do some things to in fact protect the weaker brother or sister. But I think we also have to be careful that we do not ask things of our people that actually have the effect of hurting our weaker brothers and sisters such as asking things of them that cannot be well articulated. And your last point is well taken. Until we finally learn to accept the fact that uniformity does not lead to unity and that unity can in fact happen between people that do not all look exactly alike we will continue to have major splits every 10 to 30 years and we will eventually split ourselves to death.

Frankly I am really sick of it.
For some reason, those of us that are so narrowminded on things almost seem to be putting our controlling abilities above that of the Holy Spirit. We're so afraid that if we relax a bit on some of this, that there will be a mad rush to get what we couldn't have before, dress more "wordly," etc, etc. Really?? Can we not trust the Holy Spirit to convict where He needs to and provide the needed direction? It may in fact be that we won't all do things exactly the same, but is that so bad? As long as the name of God is being glorified and the focus isn't on me because of the attention I'm drawing to myself, that's not a problem! I suggest that those who would rush to claim more liberties aren't really where God would like them to be now already, even though they may be well within the established boundaries.
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silentreader
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by silentreader »

Roger wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:
Roger wrote:
Prime example of why preaching "things" never works. We must get to the heart of the matter, why do we do the things we do? And exercise Romans 14, not flaunt our liberty in some outlandish style, neither judge our brother if he doesn't do exactly the same as I do.
Roger you make several very good points. Interestingly enough I also referred to Romans 14 in another thread before having read this.
I really do believe that any group that cannot articulate well why they do what they do will be in big danger of loosing it. and one of those reasons may in fact be that we do some things to in fact protect the weaker brother or sister. But I think we also have to be careful that we do not ask things of our people that actually have the effect of hurting our weaker brothers and sisters such as asking things of them that cannot be well articulated. And your last point is well taken. Until we finally learn to accept the fact that uniformity does not lead to unity and that unity can in fact happen between people that do not all look exactly alike we will continue to have major splits every 10 to 30 years and we will eventually split ourselves to death.

Frankly I am really sick of it.
For some reason, those of us that are so narrowminded on things almost seem to be putting our controlling abilities above that of the Holy Spirit. We're so afraid that if we relax a bit on some of this, that there will be a mad rush to get what we couldn't have before, dress more "wordly," etc, etc. Really?? Can we not trust the Holy Spirit to convict where He needs to and provide the needed direction? It may in fact be that we won't all do things exactly the same, but is that so bad? As long as the name of God is being glorified and the focus isn't on me because of the attention I'm drawing to myself, that's not a problem! I suggest that those who would rush to claim more liberties aren't really where God would like them to be now already, even though they may be well within the established boundaries.
I have seen that happen, up close. It's not pretty.
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Hats Off
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Hats Off »

Roger wrote:
For some reason, those of us that are so narrowminded on things almost seem to be putting our controlling abilities above that of the Holy Spirit. We're so afraid that if we relax a bit on some of this, that there will be a mad rush to get what we couldn't have before, dress more "wordly," etc, etc. Really?? Can we not trust the Holy Spirit to convict where He needs to and provide the needed direction? It may in fact be that we won't all do things exactly the same, but is that so bad? As long as the name of God is being glorified and the focus isn't on me because of the attention I'm drawing to myself, that's not a problem! I suggest that those who would rush to claim more liberties aren't really where God would like them to be now already, even though they may be well within the established boundaries.
I get a bit of a kick out of asking "Why don't we..." just to see how fast I get the response "Then next we will...." It seems to me we worry too much about what happens next. We are not very committed if the slightest little change will start a slide to complete assimilation.
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