Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Ernie
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Ernie »

Roger wrote: For some reason, those of us that are so narrowminded on things almost seem to be putting our controlling abilities above that of the Holy Spirit. We're so afraid that if we relax a bit on some of this, that there will be a mad rush to get what we couldn't have before, dress more "wordly," etc, etc. Really?? Can we not trust the Holy Spirit to convict where He needs to and provide the needed direction? It may in fact be that we won't all do things exactly the same, but is that so bad? As long as the name of God is being glorified and the focus isn't on me because of the attention I'm drawing to myself, that's not a problem! I suggest that those who would rush to claim more liberties aren't really where God would like them to be now already, even though they may be well within the established boundaries.
Unfortunately in many Anabaptist communities, the standards are really holding people in. When a church in Bedford decided to drop some clothing standards in favor of more "Holy Spirit guidance", the lead pastor Abner Kauffman is said to have remarked later, "I didn't know that Wal-Mart opened so early."
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appleman2006
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

Which simply proves the point that in many cases there is very little personal conviction for these things which then begs the question of how much value the rules are in the first place.
When you have whole generations that have become totally dependent on fences I think you have a problem long before the fences come down.
I would say that the longer a congregation waits to bring their statement of practise or whatever you want to call it updated to what the majority actually see as important the faster changes will take place when it actually happens. That should be of no surprise to anyone.
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Josh
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Josh »

appleman2006 wrote:Which simply proves the point that in many cases there is very little personal conviction for these things which then begs the question of how much value the rules are in the first place.
When you have whole generations that have become totally dependent on fences I think you have a problem long before the fences come down.
I would say that the longer a congregation waits to bring their statement of practise or whatever you want to call it updated to what the majority actually see as important the faster changes will take place when it actually happens. That should be of no surprise to anyone.
Lying to yourselves and others by having a statement of practice you all agree to, and then routinely violate, is a definite problem.
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appleman2006
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

Josh wrote:
appleman2006 wrote:Which simply proves the point that in many cases there is very little personal conviction for these things which then begs the question of how much value the rules are in the first place.
When you have whole generations that have become totally dependent on fences I think you have a problem long before the fences come down.
I would say that the longer a congregation waits to bring their statement of practise or whatever you want to call it updated to what the majority actually see as important the faster changes will take place when it actually happens. That should be of no surprise to anyone.
Lying to yourselves and others by having a statement of practice you all agree to, and then routinely violate, is a definite problem.
Sure but the key point there is "you all agree to" . Too often people feel like they were either coerced into agreeing or that their views were never really heard. And this is especially hard to take when people actually suspect that their views are actually in the majority in the church but a position is being held simply to satisfy a small minority.
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Josh
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Josh »

appleman2006 wrote:Sure but the key point there is "you all agree to" . Too often people feel like they were either coerced into agreeing or that their views were never really heard. And this is especially hard to take when people actually suspect that their views are actually in the majority in the church but a position is being held simply to satisfy a small minority.
That means the majority has taken a position that they want to coddle a small minority in order to avoid conflict, and is willing to be very double-minded in order to do this (often violating the standard they voted for whenever they can get away with it, like in private or on vacation).

That's a bad place for the majority of the brotherhood to be.
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appleman2006
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by appleman2006 »

Perhaps but sometimes the majority feels trapped into this position because of either a very powerful minority or perhaps because they in fact see the minority position in fact being represented by the weaker brother even though this minority would be very offended to be viewed that way. And so for the sake of peace and not wanting to be offensive they just silently march on trying their best not to be openly offensive to said minority.

This in fact happens way more often than people think. I agree it is not a healthy place to be.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Josh, I appreciate the simplicity with which you view some of this, and even the frankness it leads you to in discussion. But I'm also of the impression from your comments and seeming idealism that you haven't really had a lot of experience with the ugly reality of "minority rule" issues/situations in Anabaptist settings (regardless of what we might all agree should have been the ideal in such situations). Would that be a fair impression?
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Josh
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Josh »

Heirbyadoption wrote:Josh, I appreciate the simplicity with which you view some of this, and even the frankness it leads you to in discussion. But I'm also of the impression from your comments and seeming idealism that you haven't really had a lot of experience with the ugly reality of "minority rule" issues/situations in Anabaptist settings (regardless of what we might all agree should have been the ideal in such situations). Would that be a fair impression?
Most my experience has been of “minority rules”, and the attendant cognitive dissonance of kapps on Sundays with a group of people who would prefer not to wear veilings at all.

I walked away not even sure what the answers or solutions are to that problem.
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Intermediate Conservative Mennonite Churches

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Josh wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:Josh, I appreciate the simplicity with which you view some of this, and even the frankness it leads you to in discussion. But I'm also of the impression from your comments and seeming idealism that you haven't really had a lot of experience with the ugly reality of "minority rule" issues/situations in Anabaptist settings (regardless of what we might all agree should have been the ideal in such situations). Would that be a fair impression?
Most my experience has been of “minority rules”, and the attendant cognitive dissonance of kapps on Sundays with a group of people who would prefer not to wear veilings at all.

I walked away not even sure what the answers or solutions are to that problem.
I think we may be speaking of two different things, at least as Anabaptists generally refer it... How do you see that being a "minority rule" situation?
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