Ultra Conservative Mennonite Churches

[Heirbyadoption]

Appalachian Mountain Church (AMC) (Currently forming)
Eastern Pennsylvania Mennonite Church (EPMC)
Conservative Mennonite Churches of Ontario (CMCO)
Conservative Mennonite Churches of York and Adams Counties, PA (YA)
Nationwide Fellowship Churches (NFC)
Ohio Wisler Mennonite (OW)

Youth Bible Schools: Numidia Bible School, Ashland Bible School, and Messiah Bible School.

Currently these groups form one constituency. i.e. They share pulpits, attend Bible schools together, and work on publication projects together. It will be interesting to see if this constituency forms two constituencies over the internet issue.

The more conservative folks in each of these conferences/fellowships would like no internet and would not send their youth to the above Bible schools. The rest are OK with internet for business use but not for personal research, social networking, etc.

Ultra conservatives stay separate from intermediate conservatives mainly because intermediate conservatives are in the process of acculturating to the left. Ultra conservatives could perhaps be thought of as "the new Old Orders".
Old Orders have historically been the constituency that populated all the other conservative groups. Now Ultra conservatives are joining them in this.

Do I understand you correctly that the WashCo's alone avoid interaction with the above groups? Do they pulpit share or mingle with anybody else?

[Ernie]

Do I understand you correctly that the WashCo's alone avoid interaction with the above groups? Do they pulpit share or mingle with anybody else?

Sorry, I missed including W/F in my second post.

They are part of the same constituency, although to a lesser degree. They do share pulpits.
They do not encourage (but do permit) their young people to attend Bible schools operated by the other groups.
They do not want to become to "chummy" with people who do not wear hats and bonnets.
They are an Old Order / Ultra Conservative hybrid. They think and dress more like Old Orders (since they are the Old Orders in their geographic location - there never being an OO division in Chambersburg/Hagerstown). However, when it comes to doctrine and way of going about conducting their church meetings, they function like Ultra Conservatives. Since they do not support youth social activities, they network with Ultra Conservatives like EPMC and OW.

[Heirbyadoption]

Do I understand you correctly that the WashCo's alone avoid interaction with the above groups? Do they pulpit share or mingle with anybody else?

Sorry, I missed including W/F in my second post.

They are part of the same constituency, although to a lesser degree. They do share pulpits.
They do not encourage (but do permit) their young people to attend Bible schools operated by the other groups.
They do not want to become to "chummy" with people who do not wear hats and bonnets.
They are an Old Order / Ultra Conservative hybrid. They think and dress more like Old Orders (since they are the Old Orders in their geographic location - there never being an OO division in Chambersburg/Hagerstown). However, when it comes to doctrine and way of going about conducting their church meetings, they function like Ultra Conservatives. Since they do not support youth social activities, they network with Ultra Conservatives like EPMC and OW.

Any thoughts on Reformed Mennonites? They seem to have mostly died out of the Franklin/Washington area... Some of our locals are pretty dogmatic that 50-100 years ago they had some fairly strong effects on our folks in the same area.

[cmbl]

Frankly if it is these type of questions that the majority of interested seekers are asking than I find that hugely discouraging. While some of those things may say something about our relationship with God I would argue that by and large they do not.

There are other differences between the groups beyond the strictness of standards. I have very limited experience with ultra-conservative groups, am making myself a home in an intermediate group, and prior to that had some experience with moderate/fundamental.

Ultra conservative groups would articulate a sense of salvation in the future tense. (This is not the only tense they would articulate.) Ohio Wisler: are we going to the same place as the so-called conservative groups who allow short-sleeved shirts? Are we all going to reach heaven? York Adams: are we preparing for the marriage supper of the Lamb? The Christian Example would quote James 2 on the need for both faith and works to prepare.

Intermediate conservatives don't express things in quite the same way. But a Pilgrim Conference sermon on Christian assurance would invoke Matthew 7 to say that obedience is required for salvation.

At a moderate/fundamental group, I once gave a devotion on Matthew 7, expressing something close to a Pilgrim Conference view. The next person to speak said "We're not talking about salvation here. Salvation is by faith."

[Ernie]

Frankly if it is these type of questions that the majority of interested seekers are asking than I find that hugely discouraging. While some of those things may say something about our relationship with God I would argue that by and large they do not.

There are other differences between the groups beyond the strictness of standards. I have very limited experience with ultra-conservative groups, am making myself a home in an intermediate group, and prior to that had some experience with moderate/fundamental.

Ultra conservative groups would articulate a sense of salvation in the future tense. (This is not the only tense they would articulate.) Ohio Wisler: are we going to the same place as the so-called conservative groups who allow short-sleeved shirts? Are we all going to reach heaven? York Adams: are we preparing for the marriage supper of the Lamb? The Christian Example would quote James 2 on the need for both faith and works to prepare.

Intermediate conservatives don't express things in quite the same way. But a Pilgrim Conference sermon on Christian assurance would invoke Matthew 7 to say that obedience is required for salvation.

At a moderate/fundamental group, I once gave a devotion on Matthew 7, expressing something close to a Pilgrim Conference view. The next person to speak said "We're not talking about salvation here. Salvation is by faith."

Yes, I've noticed this kind of thing as well. These are the kinds of things seekers like to know before they join and don't always discover at first. If they are unchurched, they don't even know what is orthodox belief.

[Ernie]

Fair enough. I think the descriptions are relatively accurate although I find the description of where the different groups stand in relation to how they view Reader's Digest to be somewhat humorous. And I frankly would hope that none of these things are really what define any of these groups. What I mean by that is I find the vast majority of this stuff to be hugely peripheral.

Frankly if it is these type of questions that the majority of interested seekers are asking than I find that hugely discouraging. While some of those things may say something about our relationship with God I would argue that by and large they do not.

I can't resist saying this yet. What I read in the above two paragraphs is very moderate conservative thinking. It is what I have been hearing the last 20 years as I've interacted in moderate conservative settings. So you are being true to your colors.

More seriously, I think that this worldview is what makes it easy for a large percentage of the posterity of moderate conservatives to transition to other churches/worldviews. And perhaps you would find the differences to the left of you as being peripheral as well???
For many people, it is easy to look at the concerns of those to the right of them as being peripheral, and those to the left of them as being important.

Regarding seekers and their questions...
Many seekers may have a good relationship with God, but simply want to know what their options are and what to expect. The Anabaptist world is all new to them. What they are sold is often something different than what they get. What they were presented with is something different from what they experience. I haven't taken the time to write a description about all the different aspects of these communities, however non-conformity is a big one for seekers who are trying to decide where they fit best.

[Josh]

I don’t know if this is just my setting or if this conference-wide to Holdemans, but our ministry and a number of our members maintain good relations with the Ohio Wisler and Nationwide congregations near us, and to a lesser degree the Northeastern congregation near us.

There is a general attitude of respect to those on the right of us, along with concerns (which I hear voiced somewhat frequently) that those groups might be slipping.

For example, tolerating a preacher who privately is open to premillennialism; church disicipline getting laxer; members listening to recorded audio of non-Anabaptist preaching or much less conservative Anabaptist preaching.

This is in stark contrast to prior settings I have been in where there is an open mind to the left, but not to the right.

[Heirbyadoption]

...concerns (which I hear voiced somewhat frequently) that those groups might be slipping. For example, tolerating a preacher who privately is open to premillennialism

Holdemans feel the above can't be tolerated, I take it? Or did I misunderstand you?

[lesterb]

...concerns (which I hear voiced somewhat frequently) that those groups might be slipping. For example, tolerating a preacher who privately is open to premillennialism

Holdemans feel the above can't be tolerated, I take it? Or did I misunderstand you?

They used to print a tract condemning it, so I'm supposing that would be true.

[appleman2006]

Well on the Pre count I guess I could very well be Holderman then.

Ernie I would fully agree that I fit in with the average moderate view in what I have voiced above and I do not apologize about that. As I have said the threat of legalism for me is every bit as great as the threat of the slippery slope. I do say this, that at least in our area the percentage of young people leaving the ultra conservative groups and the intermediate groups is not that much different than what would leave the moderate groups. What I have noticed over the years is that on average the degree of bitterness that is held to by those that leave the more conservative groups is on average much higher than it is among those that leave more moderate groups. It would be interesting to explore why that is.

As far as a view of salvation being that much different among ultra or moderate groups I would question that. I think both groups would hold to the idea of salvation through faith and that faith is in fact evidenced by our works. Their disagreement would primarily be in how exactly the various principles of scripture which they would almost totally agree on are actually applied. And perhaps the blame for us not getting along better can be placed on those of us on the moderate side. Perhaps we have not been able to live out Romans 14 the way we should. It is certainly something to think about.