Sexual abuse in Churches

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
lesterb
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by lesterb »

RZehr wrote:...If the police come and ask questions, answer them. We shouldn't hide, or cover up things from them. And I think if the police decide to take action it should be their prerogative and duty, not ours.
That might be okay in the case of someone stealing your favorite fishing pole. But if someone rapes your daughter, or takes advantage of her naivete you are looking at different scenario. Or if you are a minister and find out that one of your members has misused his daughter or one of her friends. Anyone in a position of authority is liable if he doesn't report something like that.

In reality, the position of letting the police just take care of it is hiding it, because if it's in the church and everyone takes that position, then we are hiding it, because they have no way of finding out.

I remember a situation like this of a man who was known for molesting his nephews. The bishop of the group was related to him and finally his conscience drove him to report the situation. It was bad enough that the perpetrator got a thirty year sentence, if I remember correctly. The bishop got a lot of flack about doing this, but finally that was the only way to stop an endless cycle of abuse.
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Joy
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by Joy »

Could you clarify "It was bad enough that the perpetrator got a thirty year sentence"? I won't pretend that this whole area is simple and easy. It's not.There are so many layers to this kind of sin/crime, and I don't know who all should be involved in taking care of it, but I would say this principle applies:
Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
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RZehr
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote:
RZehr wrote:I'm not sure if I agree that it is our duty to report all criminal activity to the police. I've had things stolen from me and talked with the thief and didn't turn him in. I know that many people are strong proponents of immediately turning to the police.

But I believe that 1 Corinthians 6 should be considered as well. "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?"

I am not saying that we are forbidden from ever turning a case into the police. But I am tapping the brakes on the issue a little bit.
As far as the churches testimony, I think that is not correct thinking. Our testimony is not one of perfection. I wouldn't broadcast the situation to the four winds, but nor would I go to much effort to hide what happened. I think if people outside the church ask about it, it is our duty to give them answers. Let reputations be reflective of truth.

If the police come and ask questions, answer them. We shouldn't hide, or cover up things from them. And I think if the police decide to take action it should be their prerogative and duty, not ours.
Perhaps 1 Cor 6 was partly why women didn't report what John Howard Yoder did -

https://themennonite.org/feature/failur ... ual-abuse/
More than 100 women experienced unwanted sexual violations by Yoder, ranging across a spectrum from sexual harassment in public places to, more rarely, sexual intercourse. With no legal charges ever filed, adjudication took place in seminary offices, conference quarters and living rooms—often involving Mennonites connected to Yoder through congregational associations or even family relationships.
Over 100 abused women and not one legally charged John. It would be interesting to know why each of these did not go to the police. How much was to protect the perceived image of an esteemed leader and writer ? How many were afraid of being shunned due to lack of evidence ? How many thought their submissive role as women included these actions ? Do Anabaptist men and women today understand what 'unwanted sexual violations' include ?
It might be true that 1 Cor 6 is to blame partially. I don't have any idea though. I never heard of JH Yoder until I joined Mennonet, and don't know any of the people involved.
Regarding the idea of "not one legally charged John" - I personally have a conviction against legally charging someone. I would be alright with testifying. My understanding is that in some states the police cannot take action without a victim charging the perpetrator, and in some states the police can prosecute a perpetrator in the name of the state. Or something like that.
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RZehr
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by RZehr »

lesterb wrote:
RZehr wrote:...If the police come and ask questions, answer them. We shouldn't hide, or cover up things from them. And I think if the police decide to take action it should be their prerogative and duty, not ours.
That might be okay in the case of someone stealing your favorite fishing pole. But if someone rapes your daughter, or takes advantage of her naivete you are looking at different scenario. Or if you are a minister and find out that one of your members has misused his daughter or one of her friends. Anyone in a position of authority is liable if he doesn't report something like that.

In reality, the position of letting the police just take care of it is hiding it, because if it's in the church and everyone takes that position, then we are hiding it, because they have no way of finding out.

I remember a situation like this of a man who was known for molesting his nephews. The bishop of the group was related to him and finally his conscience drove him to report the situation. It was bad enough that the perpetrator got a thirty year sentence, if I remember correctly. The bishop got a lot of flack about doing this, but finally that was the only way to stop an endless cycle of abuse.
If there is a law that says I am obligated to report a crime, I am comfortable doing so. I don't think leaving it to the police is effectively hiding it. Maybe in some circles it could be. But in our community good luck trying to keep any sexual misconduct a secret. The secular community usually finds out real soon one way or another.
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lesterb
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by lesterb »

Joy wrote:Could you clarify "It was bad enough that the perpetrator got a thirty year sentence"? I won't pretend that this whole area is simple and easy. It's not.There are so many layers to this kind of sin/crime, and I don't know who all should be involved in taking care of it, but I would say this principle applies:
Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
I received my information from someone in the bishop's family, who was also related to this man. He would apparently sexually abuse boys, the he would confess and nothing was done about it. But it went on over a period of years and finally the bishop was advised that he needed to report it, both for his own safety and for the safety of the boys involved.

The abuser was quite offended that anyone would report him. And a number of relatives were too.

I'm not a legal expert, but in Canada a church leader, doctor, nurse, or person with a similar public accountability can be charged for hiding such incidents [ie. not reporting them]

As far as this kind of thing always hitting the community, I really can't conceive that. Most of these cases are so deeply covered up that unless the victim speaks up or the abuser confesses, they never come out. Whether or not your law requires you to report this, I feel that you are indirectly a part of the crime if you participate in hiding it.
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Signtist
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by Signtist »

RZehr wrote: I'd like to see what policy Eastern wrote. If anyone can provide me with one, I thank you.
I like the thought of a policy for the church. It wouldn't have to be super defined, but I like that idea.
We have our own schools. I think there should be teaching that a student can feel safe confiding in the teachers.
Not all families practice the same level of modesty in the home. Whatever level we have, we should take the time to teach our children that this here is okay, and this is not. Teach them about grooming, and that certain things are not okay regardless who it is. Even if it is one of their parents or grandparents, sibling, anyone!
Tell them exactly what to do if certain things happen, and exactly what to do in certain scenarios. Remind them. Don't teach the older ones and then forget about the younger ones.
Appleman's church has a "policy" posted in the restroom. Pretty sure I took one of the little guys out during a service just so I could read and photograph it! I don't have a copy of it, but wish he would post it here, sometime. I think it may be valuable to have something similar for our schools, but haven't raised the idea at a school meeting yet. Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I know it annoys some folks. I think this thread is important, and only stumbled upon it now.
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francis
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by francis »

There are two things that I take issue with. The first is the evidence: we see in churches all around (catholic, protestant, etc.) that parents believe that their child is being abused, so they go to the church, and the church does nothing. As much as I wish that we could trust the church to act quickly and protect the vulnerable, we have seen that this does not happen.
Second: A lot of this thread focuses on forgiving the perpetrator. Forgiveness is important, sure, but more important still is the healing and justice offered the victim. Prison and other discipline is harsh, but it's certainly merited in a case of sexual abuse. Meanwhile the victim has been traumatized, often for life, and if the congregation focuses merely on forgiving the abuser, what justice is that? How can we best treat victims in a Christ-like way?
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MaxPC
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by MaxPC »

francis wrote:There are two things that I take issue with. The first is the evidence: we see in churches all around (catholic, protestant, etc.) that parents believe that their child is being abused, so they go to the church, and the church does nothing. As much as I wish that we could trust the church to act quickly and protect the vulnerable, we have seen that this does not happen.
Second: A lot of this thread focuses on forgiving the perpetrator. Forgiveness is important, sure, but more important still is the healing and justice offered the victim. Prison and other discipline is harsh, but it's certainly merited in a case of sexual abuse. Meanwhile the victim has been traumatized, often for life, and if the congregation focuses merely on forgiving the abuser, what justice is that? How can we best treat victims in a Christ-like way?
A very salient question and one that needs to be addressed frequently. Since 2002 our USCCB has put in place procedures to give victims justice as well as counseling and compassion. We're still cleaning up our mess from cases before that time however as recent news events have shown. Lord, help us.
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Josh
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by Josh »

Perhaps the USCCB should consider measures they can take to deal with repeated cover-ups and the problem of a large, influential group of homosexuals active within the Catholic power heirarchy. But don't take my word for it--read Archbishop Viganò's testimony on the matter:
Archbishop Viganò wrote:In this extremely dramatic moment for the universal Church, he must acknowledge his mistakes and, in keeping with the proclaimed principle of zero tolerance, Pope Francis must be the first to set a good example for cardinals and bishops who covered up McCarrick’s abuses and resign along with all of them.

...

Father James Martin, S.J., acclaimed by the people mentioned above, in particular Cupich, Tobin, Farrell and McElroy, appointed Consultor of the Secretariat for Communications, well-known activist who promotes the LGBT agenda, chosen to corrupt the young people who will soon gather in Dublin for the World Meeting of Families, is nothing but a sad recent example of that deviated wing of the Society of Jesus.

...

The seriousness of homosexual behavior must be denounced. The homosexual networks present in the Church must be eradicated, as Janet Smith, Professor of Moral Theology at the Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, recently wrote. “The problem of clergy abuse,” she wrote, “cannot be resolved simply by the resignation of some bishops, and even less so by bureaucratic directives. The deeper problem lies in homosexual networks within the clergy which must be eradicated.” These homosexual networks, which are now widespread in many dioceses, seminaries, religious orders, etc., act under the concealment of secrecy and lies with the power of octopus tentacles, and strangle innocent victims and priestly vocations, and are strangling the entire Church.
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MaxPC
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Re: Sexual abuse in Churches

Post by MaxPC »

Josh wrote:Perhaps the USCCB should consider measures they can take to deal with repeated cover-ups and the problem of a large, influential group of homosexuals active within the Catholic power heirarchy. But don't take my word for it--read Archbishop Viganò's testimony on the matter:
Archbishop Viganò wrote:In this extremely dramatic moment for the universal Church, he must acknowledge his mistakes and, in keeping with the proclaimed principle of zero tolerance, Pope Francis must be the first to set a good example for cardinals and bishops who covered up McCarrick’s abuses and resign along with all of them.

...

Father James Martin, S.J., acclaimed by the people mentioned above, in particular Cupich, Tobin, Farrell and McElroy, appointed Consultor of the Secretariat for Communications, well-known activist who promotes the LGBT agenda, chosen to corrupt the young people who will soon gather in Dublin for the World Meeting of Families, is nothing but a sad recent example of that deviated wing of the Society of Jesus.

...

The seriousness of homosexual behavior must be denounced. The homosexual networks present in the Church must be eradicated, as Janet Smith, Professor of Moral Theology at the Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, recently wrote. “The problem of clergy abuse,” she wrote, “cannot be resolved simply by the resignation of some bishops, and even less so by bureaucratic directives. The deeper problem lies in homosexual networks within the clergy which must be eradicated.” These homosexual networks, which are now widespread in many dioceses, seminaries, religious orders, etc., act under the concealment of secrecy and lies with the power of octopus tentacles, and strangle innocent victims and priestly vocations, and are strangling the entire Church.
Indeed and I agree. The liberal media is trying to spin that Vigano is on a personal vendetta against Pope Francis because the liberal media and liberals within the Catholic Church like Francis. Yet another official has stepped forward and stated that Vigano "told the truth".

The homosexual networks are in all the churches without a doubt. MC-USA, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodists, the Baptists; no one is without this presence of abomination. Hopefully the sad situation we find ourselves in will make other denominations aware of these networks of abomination and they will prepare and take action to stop the problem before it sends their denominations into perdition.

For those who are practicing Anabaptists I'd appreciate your input here so that I can submit it for the Bishop's meeting in November.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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