Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

[gcdonner]

This is true and I agree with you that it's important to be reluctant to change, but how will driving a black car help build Your Kingdom?

Well, for instance, by taking a person to Sunday meeting, cottage meetings, and to various street meetings. By taking one to work every day and back home again... Sorry, couldn't resist. See my reply to gcdonner regarding my rational for why a dark car is better for me in my situation.

The counterpart to your question is "Will a white car or a red car be more effective than a black car in helping me to advance the interests of the Kingdom of Heaven?" In my situation I believe the answer is, No.

But they also won't hinder advancing the interests of the kingdom, will they? It is a non-issue for those that the church is supposedly trying to impress with their piety. Simplicity yes, but the color of the car does not really do that, does it?
White would be more in keeping with purity, whereas black is a symbol of darkness. We are to be children of the light, right?
BTW, when we first started attending a Mennonite church, they were shocked by my red van and made it clear that it was unacceptable after our second visit... I got as far as painting the hood black and couldn't do more as my finances wouldn't allow. We were simply living below the poverty level at the time and the van was the least expensive vehicle we could find to carry our family around in.

[ken_sylvania]

But they also won't hinder advancing the interests of the kingdom, will they? It is a non-issue for those that the church is supposedly trying to impress with their piety. Simplicity yes, but the color of the car does not really do that, does it?
White would be more in keeping with purity, whereas black is a symbol of darkness. We are to be children of the light, right?
BTW, when we first started attending a Mennonite church, they were shocked by my red van and made it clear that it was unacceptable after our second visit... I got as far as painting the hood black and couldn't do more as my finances wouldn't allow. We were simply living below the poverty level at the time and the van was the least expensive vehicle we could find to carry our family around in.

That is where I feel many CMs have gotten off track in the vehicle issue. In some circles vehicle color has become one of the most important factors in determining whether a vehicle is "plain," resulting in some fancy black cars being accepted.
I would agree that anymore, from a strictly rational basis, white, tan, and various other subdued colors should fit the conditions for modesty and simplicity. But I know of no easy way to softly transition an entire group from the "dark is simple" perspective to a "white and tan are simple too" perspective.

It is a non-issue for those that the church is supposedly trying to impress with their piety.

If we're trying to impress anybody with our piety we've got something in the wrong order.

I'm not familiar with what you're situation was when you first attended a Mennonite church, but in general I am horrified at the idea of someone feeling it is appropriate to criticize the color of your ride that early in the game. Now, maybe if you got into a discussion about vehicle colors, I could see where a person might mention that red isn't considered appropriate, but in general there are a lot of things to deal with that are more important than vehicle color, even if a new attendee is coming to church in a bright red Ferrari.

[Josh]

If it's OK to criticise women for the clothing they wear (and CMs definitely do this with visitors, even first time visitors), then it's OK to criticise the cars men and women drive.

[Wade]

I've side tracked another topic yet again

Something more topic related; cars. I understand why some Churches only use black cars, but black cars have a different meaning in society today while white is the new basic or plain car color. If they said white, grey and black cars, well then that would be a decent compromise, but narrowing it down to one color that is a popular and high class car color seems to go against the reason of having black cars in the first place. Maybe those Churches should go back to using horse and buggy?

One of the hallmarks of conservatism is a reluctance to change. Why should we let the fluctuations in society dictate what we do ourselves? In another ten to fifteen years, the high class car color is going to be something different. Should we be following after society just 20 years behind?
I'm not saying that a church should or should not use only black cars, but I can appreciate the stability that results from a church being willing to maintain their chosen applications of Scriptural principals while cultural trends surge toward and then away from those particular applications.

What biblical principle is in view with black cars? We tend to forget that initially, black was about the only color available...talk about conformity to the world.

I think for some churches or rather people in the churches following a car color has to do with submission.

Don't get me wrong here as a fundamentalist but my mind works more mathematically:.
Submission takes humility.
So if we don't submit we could lack humility.
If we aren't humble then we don't have grace.
And since grace and faith are joined together; if we don't have grace then neither do we have faith...
Since car colors aren't important yet by not submitting we aren't being faithful in little, how can we be faithful with much (being joined to the body of Christ.)

I know there are holes all in this and just because you drive a black car doesn't mean you have faith. But this is partly why I can respect those churches who do choose some standards that seem strange. Unfortunately when some of these standards become unaffordable it looks really bad and people can be hurt. Although maybe if one sticks around longer and has the peace of Christ in whatever they have when they can't afford - I think it would work out just as God would want it.
I know I don't want to be part of a church lacking humility...

[steve-in-kville]

The common church rulings on color of a car has nothing to do with submission. Its a hold over from the model T Ford. Its a tradition through and through.

[ken_sylvania]

The common church rulings on color of a car has nothing to do with submission. Its a hold over from the model T Ford. Its a tradition through and through.

Are you suggesting that the only reason the ultra-conservative churches require dark colors is because "that's the way we've always done it?"

[Josh]

The common church rulings on color of a car has nothing to do with submission. Its a hold over from the model T Ford. Its a tradition through and through.

Submission is often about arbitrary things. At some point, most traditions are arbitrary in a sense.

The question is why so many of us feel a strong need to buck all tradition.

[steve-in-kville]

The common church rulings on color of a car has nothing to do with submission. Its a hold over from the model T Ford. Its a tradition through and through.

Are you suggesting that the only reason the ultra-conservative churches require dark colors is because "that's the way we've always done it?"

Yup. Along with a bajillion other things that don't makes sense, but no one will speak up.

[ken_sylvania]

The common church rulings on color of a car has nothing to do with submission. Its a hold over from the model T Ford. Its a tradition through and through.

Are you suggesting that the only reason the ultra-conservative churches require dark colors is because "that's the way we've always done it?"

Yup. Along with a bajillion other things that don't makes sense, but no one will speak up.

And your source of knowledge on that is:
Official church publications?
Messages preached and topics taught in these churches?
Teaching heard at church-sponsored Bible schools?
Personal discussion with bishops, ministers, or deacons of these churches?
Other?

[gcdonner]

The common church rulings on color of a car has nothing to do with submission. Its a hold over from the model T Ford. Its a tradition through and through.

Submission is often about arbitrary things. At some point, most traditions are arbitrary in a sense.

The question is why so many of us feel a strong need to buck all tradition.

Submission to whom? Christ or the church?