Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
ken_sylvania
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Haystack wrote:I've side tracked another topic yet again :oops:

Something more topic related; cars. I understand why some Churches only use black cars, but black cars have a different meaning in society today while white is the new basic or plain car color. If they said white, grey and black cars, well then that would be a decent compromise, but narrowing it down to one color that is a popular and high class car color seems to go against the reason of having black cars in the first place. Maybe those Churches should go back to using horse and buggy?
One of the hallmarks of conservatism is a reluctance to change. Why should we let the fluctuations in society dictate what we do ourselves? In another ten to fifteen years, the high class car color is going to be something different. Should we be following after society just 20 years behind?
I'm not saying that a church should or should not use only black cars, but I can appreciate the stability that results from a church being willing to maintain their chosen applications of Scriptural principals while cultural trends surge toward and then away from those particular applications.
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Haystack
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by Haystack »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Haystack wrote:I've side tracked another topic yet again :oops:

Something more topic related; cars. I understand why some Churches only use black cars, but black cars have a different meaning in society today while white is the new basic or plain car color. If they said white, grey and black cars, well then that would be a decent compromise, but narrowing it down to one color that is a popular and high class car color seems to go against the reason of having black cars in the first place. Maybe those Churches should go back to using horse and buggy?
One of the hallmarks of conservatism is a reluctance to change. Why should we let the fluctuations in society dictate what we do ourselves? In another ten to fifteen years, the high class car color is going to be something different. Should we be following after society just 20 years behind?
I'm not saying that a church should or should not use only black cars, but I can appreciate the stability that results from a church being willing to maintain their chosen applications of Scriptural principals while cultural trends surge toward and then away from those particular applications.
This is true and I agree with you that it's important to be reluctant to change, but how will driving a black car help build Your Kingdom?
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gcdonner
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by gcdonner »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Haystack wrote:I've side tracked another topic yet again :oops:

Something more topic related; cars. I understand why some Churches only use black cars, but black cars have a different meaning in society today while white is the new basic or plain car color. If they said white, grey and black cars, well then that would be a decent compromise, but narrowing it down to one color that is a popular and high class car color seems to go against the reason of having black cars in the first place. Maybe those Churches should go back to using horse and buggy?
One of the hallmarks of conservatism is a reluctance to change. Why should we let the fluctuations in society dictate what we do ourselves? In another ten to fifteen years, the high class car color is going to be something different. Should we be following after society just 20 years behind?
I'm not saying that a church should or should not use only black cars, but I can appreciate the stability that results from a church being willing to maintain their chosen applications of Scriptural principals while cultural trends surge toward and then away from those particular applications.
What biblical principle is in view with black cars? We tend to forget that initially, black was about the only color available...talk about conformity to the world.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

gcdonner wrote: What biblical principle is in view with black cars? We tend to forget that initially, black was about the only color available...talk about conformity to the world.
The principle in focus originally was simplicity and an active effort to not show pride. The development of the "black car" standard varied among the various conferences. When cars first came out, some of the more conservative conferences discouraged or forbade car ownership. As cars became more common, some of these conferences began to allow car ownership, but members were instructed not to purchase the newest styles or luxury models, and to purchase the more economical touring cars rather than closed sedans. Sometime around 1920? or so, I don't remember the exact year, the new touring cars began sporting white curtains, and hardtops or closed sedans began to be allowed, again provided they were not luxury models, with older models still being encouraged. Any chrome trim was to be removed or painted black.
A wide variety of automobile colors has been available from the time horseless carriages were first introduced. Henry Ford popularized the color black. He developed an asphalt-based baked enamel which worked well with his assembly-line method of production; hence the popular low-cost models were often black.
The focus on simplicity in vehicle choices has unfortunately been clouded among some (many?) in conservative churches today. Comments are heard which indicate that some think dark vehicles is a way of demonstrating non-conformity. Audis and BMWs with shiny paint jobs make one wonder if the owner considered the principle of simplicity when he went car shopping.
For me, the question now becomes, what kind of a statement will I make when I purchase a car? Am I more concerned about how my brothers and sisters in Christ will interpret my choice, or about my own reasoning regarding what is simple or what is worldly? If I purchase a white car, I can be positive that conservative people around me would see that as a repudiation of their values and of my upbringing. I do not know of any reason that I should chose not to purchase a dark colored vehicle. Dark vehicles are readily available and on average don't cost more than light colored vehicles.
Note that this does not necessarily apply to the concern raised by the OP regarding NMB people joining a conservative church. In the churches I tend to circulate among, a new member wouldn't necessarily be expected to replace their vehicle immediately just because it's the wrong color, but when it wears out, the replacement would be expected to be in line with standards.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

Haystack wrote: This is true and I agree with you that it's important to be reluctant to change, but how will driving a black car help build Your Kingdom?
Well, for instance, by taking a person to Sunday meeting, cottage meetings, and to various street meetings. By taking one to work every day and back home again... Sorry, couldn't resist. :lol: :lol: See my reply to gcdonner regarding my rational for why a dark car is better for me in my situation.

The counterpart to your question is "Will a white car or a red car be more effective than a black car in helping me to advance the interests of the Kingdom of Heaven?" In my situation I believe the answer is, No.
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joshuabgood
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by joshuabgood »

The Model T you could only get in black. It became so confusing trying to tell whose car was which one that license plates were invented.

Well that may be an urban legend but it makes the point =)

Josh
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by ken_sylvania »

joshuabgood wrote:The Model T you could only get in black.
Any color you wanted, as long as you wanted black, right? :lol:

According to Wikipedia
Wikipedia wrote:By 1918, half of all the cars in the US were Model Ts. However, it was a monolithic bloc; Ford wrote in his autobiography that in 1909 he told his management team that in the future “Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black”.[28]

However, in the first years of production from 1908 to 1913, the Model T was not available in black[29] but rather only gray, green, blue, and red. Green was available for the touring cars, town cars, coupes, and Landaulets. Gray was only available for the town cars, and red only for the touring cars. By 1912, all cars were being painted midnight blue with black fenders. It was only in 1914 that the "any color so long as it is black" policy was finally implemented. It is often stated that Ford suggested the use of black from 1914 to 1926 due to the cheap cost and durability of black paint. During the lifetime production of the Model T, over 30 types of black paint were used on various parts of the car.[29] These were formulated to satisfy the different means of applying the paint to the various parts, and had distinct drying times, depending on the part, paint, and method of drying.
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ohio jones
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by ohio jones »

joshuabgood wrote:It became so confusing trying to tell whose car was which one that license plates were invented.
In the church of my childhood that we could barely afford to join, the unwritten standard was a brown 1971 Ford LTD. There must have been nearly a dozen. A few nonconformists drove a Galaxie 500, or a 1972 model, or a different color. By the time we bought a green 1971 Ford Custom 500, nearly everyone else had upgraded to something newer, the brotherhood unity had disappeared, and soon there was a split. :-|
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Josh
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by Josh »

My understanding is originally there was a standard of black buggies and this extended to cars too. Thus farm trucks don't have to be black to this day. Likewise are expectations of church shoes to be black etc

Going to the original post, I would say that the cost of church membership to be very high - as high as giving up one's own life.
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Haystack
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Re: Can Folks Afford to Join Your Church?

Post by Haystack »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Haystack wrote: This is true and I agree with you that it's important to be reluctant to change, but how will driving a black car help build Your Kingdom?
Well, for instance, by taking a person to Sunday meeting, cottage meetings, and to various street meetings. By taking one to work every day and back home again... Sorry, couldn't resist. :lol: :lol: See my reply to gcdonner regarding my rational for why a dark car is better for me in my situation.

The counterpart to your question is "Will a white car or a red car be more effective than a black car in helping me to advance the interests of the Kingdom of Heaven?" In my situation I believe the answer is, No.
Thank you for a good laugh, that was a good one :lol:

I see where you're coming from and I appreciate the lengthy explanation. I just don't see the reason to worry about the color of a car, but I respect the decision of those who do. So keep on keeping on :up:
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