Anabaptist Evangelism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote: I'm not sure how to respond to that, perhaps I shouldn't try lest I get both feet in my mouth.
Looking at the Acts "church", I think it says that they had all things common, and those that "had" shared with those that "had not". One of the reasons this was happening, I believe, and anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, was that large numbers of Jewish people from other countries had come to Jerusalem perhaps for the Passover, and/or for the Feast of Weeks, and in all the uproar surrounding the crucifixion and the following rumors about a resurrection, had never gone back to their home countries. So in a very real sense they had forsaken everything, they were seekers, wanting to become part of this new "Christian church".
In order for that to work, there had to be others who had not given up everything in the same way who were able to provide for the needs of those who had given up everything. This was indeed a powerful form of evangelism for any "outsiders" who saw that happening.
It is here, I believe, where we Mennonites lack, and I say Mennonites because I can not speak for other Anabaptists.
One of our problems, and this may be flogging a dead horse, is that we are convinced that good stewardship involves looking after our own things, whereas Biblical good stewardship is actually looking after God's things that He has put in our care, which good stewardship means we are eager to meet the needs of those who have needs that we are able to serve.
I think the practise of making sure everyone in the church has their basic needs met is required of us. And we can even share whatever we have if it is needed by anyone else in the local church. If someone needs a riding lawn mower, anyone who has one will be glad to lend it out. But even here people in the world have social groups that do this kind of thing. I have neighbours that will lend me whatever I need and they know I will do likewise.

So, what we do within our Christian communities like sharing isn't necessarily going to impress outsiders. However, when we have this attitude and willingness to treat our stuff the same with the unchurched, especially when there is a cost to us but we lend or give it freely, this, I believe does reflect the value we place on temporal stuff. And for this to happen, we need to have relationships with unchurched and get to know them and their primary concerns. If our primary concern is for the unchurched to join us in being a Kingdom person and having the gift of eternal life, sharing and even losing temporal stuff would be well worth it.

And as for being known for our love one for another - how does this impress the unchurched from the type of love they can experience in worldly social groups ? Perhaps this is shown by our refusal to slander other Christians in or outside our brand of Christian practise. And other ways that just are exceptional to what the world does. Like ?
I thought it was starting to get through but I think not... It seems to come back to money which really isn't the point. There is something tied up in the forsaking all and vulnerability that is absolutely key that I just can't get the words to articulate. I appoligize, I am at a loss in putting it into the right words...
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wayne in Maine »

Soloist wrote:its posts like this that make me feel sad that there isn't an early (and I do mean early) Hutterite group to join...
We assumed that the Bruderhof Communities were such a group but they are not. We have also hoped that such a gathering could be established, and perhaps it can, but I don't see anything like it on the horizon.
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Ernie
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Ernie »

Wade wrote:I much agree but when I read about Mennonites I was not told this... So now I don't really believe those books I read as much. Nor then do I have an easy time believing what Mennonites today write about the early Anabaptists either... Is it just cheery picking the best and leaving out all the rest?!!!! So I gave up and bought house so my family has somewhere to live and am trying to be light with starting over. I would love to forsake all again to join with others with a vision like the early Christians and/or early Anabaptists but I'm doubtful it exists today and after being burnt I doubt I could convince others in my home to do it again anyway. So I guess this is all just dreams. :blah: :blah: :blah:
I can understand why you are where you are Wade. I have no reason to judge you in this. I still have hope and dreams and wish the same for you some day.

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”
― G.K. Chesterton, What's Wrong with the World
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
Hats Off
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Hats Off »

Wade wrote:
I thought it was starting to get through but I think not... It seems to come back to money which really isn't the point. There is something tied up in the forsaking all and vulnerability that is absolutely key that I just can't get the words to articulate. I appoligize, I am at a loss in putting it into the right words...
Wade, we are told that one of our greatest issues today is prosperity. This is probably correct so when we think of forsaking all, the financial aspect is all we can think of. I do understand that that is not what you are talking about.

Patience is a virtue. You are still young enough to dream - to think ahead.

There are so many things that we cannot see through your eyes, we have not been there. We think we know who we are, we understand to a large degree where we are and where we have come from. We know it is probably time for a reformation. 500 years of drifting/sliding along and the results we see would indicate that we are, in many ways, not that much different from where we came from. But we still can't see from your perspective because we do not have your experience.

I think we need to apologize to all seekers for failing to make ourselves properly understood. The only person who can do that is a seeker who successfully completed the journey from seeker to being able to see both sides clearly.

Keep talking!
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Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

Ernie wrote:“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”
― G.K. Chesterton, What's Wrong with the World
Why is it those exhortations that sting a bit, the ones we are the most greatful for?

Thanks Ernie.
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lesterb
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by lesterb »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Soloist wrote:its posts like this that make me feel sad that there isn't an early (and I do mean early) Hutterite group to join...
We assumed that the Bruderhof Communities were such a group but they are not. We have also hoped that such a gathering could be established, and perhaps it can, but I don't see anything like it on the horizon.
I don't know. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I live among probably a dozen Hutterite colonies. We have people in our congregation who left that behind and others whose grandparents did. The Hutterite culture is very difficult to shake off, and it seems to require strong natured individuals who can push their way to the front, even if others get trampled along the way. It seems to me that the dream that leads people in that direction is mostly a mirage. The struggles in Elmendorf and the recent events in Tasmania seem to be more proof of the same. Colony life promotes a spiritual survival of the fittest that tends to bring carnality to the top of the soup. Not every leader of a colony is carnal of course, but it takes a big fist to keep it all working.

"Fulfilled" dreams always eventually give way to reality. That is true whether you dream of communal living, or becoming a part of an Old Order group, or a conservative Anabaptist group in any of Ernie's classifications. It all has to start with having a relationship with God where we are, and then following God as He leads us through that relationship. God doesn't lead people to Utopia--there is no place with that name on planet earth (or Mars). He takes us where He can draw us closer to Him, and that might be someplace where we really need His presence.

We all have our dreams. Or did have. But in the end, reality is what counts. And that is based on the question: Am I following Christ and taking up my cross?
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Heirbyadoption »

lesterb wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
Soloist wrote:its posts like this that make me feel sad that there isn't an early (and I do mean early) Hutterite group to join...
We assumed that the Bruderhof Communities were such a group but they are not. We have also hoped that such a gathering could be established, and perhaps it can, but I don't see anything like it on the horizon.
I don't know. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I live among probably a dozen Hutterite colonies. We have people in our congregation who left that behind and others whose grandparents did. The Hutterite culture is very difficult to shake off, and it seems to require strong natured individuals who can push their way to the front, even if others get trampled along the way. It seems to me that the dream that leads people in that direction is mostly a mirage. The struggles in Elmendorf and the recent events in Tasmania seem to be more proof of the same. Colony life promotes a spiritual survival of the fittest that tends to bring carnality to the top of the soup. Not every leader of a colony is carnal of course, but it takes a big fist to keep it all working.
Bear in mind, that movement began with scattered and persecuted people coming together, not by people entering it as their fulfilled dream nor by people growing up within it as we now see. I posit that the persecution/immediate-need context, more than anything, lent itself to the "stability" and natural coherency of a movement such as the Hutterites, especially since even in the early days there were leadership issues. Now that all is settled and the movement has grown into an entirely different and much, much larger "animal", the big fist is indeed needed, and the stage is set/enabled for the carnality you referenced to become a much easier reality. The same seems true of American Anabaptism in general and really any victim of the eventual "stille im lande" result.
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Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: We assumed that the Bruderhof Communities were such a group but they are not. We have also hoped that such a gathering could be established, and perhaps it can, but I don't see anything like it on the horizon.
I don't know. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I live among probably a dozen Hutterite colonies. We have people in our congregation who left that behind and others whose grandparents did. The Hutterite culture is very difficult to shake off, and it seems to require strong natured individuals who can push their way to the front, even if others get trampled along the way. It seems to me that the dream that leads people in that direction is mostly a mirage. The struggles in Elmendorf and the recent events in Tasmania seem to be more proof of the same. Colony life promotes a spiritual survival of the fittest that tends to bring carnality to the top of the soup. Not every leader of a colony is carnal of course, but it takes a big fist to keep it all working.
Bear in mind, that movement began with scattered and persecuted people coming together, not by people entering it as their fulfilled dream nor by people growing up within it as we now see. I posit that the persecution/immediate-need context, more than anything, lent itself to the "stability" and natural coherency of a movement such as the Hutterites, especially since even in the early days there were leadership issues. Now that all is settled and the movement has grown into an entirely different and much, much larger "animal", the big fist is indeed needed, and the stage is set/enabled for the carnality you referenced to become a much easier reality. The same seems true of American Anabaptism in general and really any victim of the eventual "stille im lande" result.
This is closer to what I was trying to get at.
There is something about our openness and vulnerability with God that I wonder if those persecuted believers really shared that with one another. Something very intimate and personal, and so each of us becoming very vulnerable to one another too.
With times of proving, western culture "independence" attitude, church standards or the lack thereof we seem to all find something to hide behind or distract us not from a mirage but rather from reality. It may sound absurd but i's like the very things that make Anabaptism what it is today are the only things keeping it from being what it was...
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Heirbyadoption
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Wade wrote:...it's like the very things that make Anabaptism what it is today are the only things keeping it from being what it was...
Now THERE'S a discussion thread in its own right!
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wayne in Maine »

lesterb wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
Soloist wrote:its posts like this that make me feel sad that there isn't an early (and I do mean early) Hutterite group to join...
We assumed that the Bruderhof Communities were such a group but they are not. We have also hoped that such a gathering could be established, and perhaps it can, but I don't see anything like it on the horizon.
I don't know. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I live among probably a dozen Hutterite colonies. We have people in our congregation who left that behind and others whose grandparents did. The Hutterite culture is very difficult to shake off, and it seems to require strong natured individuals who can push their way to the front, even if others get trampled along the way. It seems to me that the dream that leads people in that direction is mostly a mirage. The struggles in Elmendorf and the recent events in Tasmania seem to be more proof of the same. Colony life promotes a spiritual survival of the fittest that tends to bring carnality to the top of the soup. Not every leader of a colony is carnal of course, but it takes a big fist to keep it all working.

"Fulfilled" dreams always eventually give way to reality. That is true whether you dream of communal living, or becoming a part of an Old Order group, or a conservative Anabaptist group in any of Ernie's classifications. It all has to start with having a relationship with God where we are, and then following God as He leads us through that relationship. God doesn't lead people to Utopia--there is no place with that name on planet earth (or Mars). He takes us where He can draw us closer to Him, and that might be someplace where we really need His presence.

We all have our dreams. Or did have. But in the end, reality is what counts. And that is based on the question: Am I following Christ and taking up my cross?
A brother at the Bruderhof used to say "Be careful when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you!

Hutterites, like Mennonites and Amish, have become an ethnic culture. If the Hutterites have spiritual and cultural failings it is not because their ancestors (the first generation of Anabaptists) failed to surrender all and give themselves 100% to the mission of Jesus and His kingdom. Turning to Pietism or a mere "personal relationship" with God (something I read often but never have been able to find in my bible) is not the answer to our corporately failing to follow Jesus and living as though He really meant what He said.
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