Anabaptist Evangelism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
lesterb
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by lesterb »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: We assumed that the Bruderhof Communities were such a group but they are not. We have also hoped that such a gathering could be established, and perhaps it can, but I don't see anything like it on the horizon.
I don't know. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I live among probably a dozen Hutterite colonies. We have people in our congregation who left that behind and others whose grandparents did. The Hutterite culture is very difficult to shake off, and it seems to require strong natured individuals who can push their way to the front, even if others get trampled along the way. It seems to me that the dream that leads people in that direction is mostly a mirage. The struggles in Elmendorf and the recent events in Tasmania seem to be more proof of the same. Colony life promotes a spiritual survival of the fittest that tends to bring carnality to the top of the soup. Not every leader of a colony is carnal of course, but it takes a big fist to keep it all working.

"Fulfilled" dreams always eventually give way to reality. That is true whether you dream of communal living, or becoming a part of an Old Order group, or a conservative Anabaptist group in any of Ernie's classifications. It all has to start with having a relationship with God where we are, and then following God as He leads us through that relationship. God doesn't lead people to Utopia--there is no place with that name on planet earth (or Mars). He takes us where He can draw us closer to Him, and that might be someplace where we really need His presence.

We all have our dreams. Or did have. But in the end, reality is what counts. And that is based on the question: Am I following Christ and taking up my cross?
A brother at the Bruderhof used to say "Be careful when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you!

Hutterites, like Mennonites and Amish, have become an ethnic culture. If the Hutterites have spiritual and cultural failings it is not because their ancestors (the first generation of Anabaptists) failed to surrender all and give themselves 100% to the mission of Jesus and His kingdom. Turning to Pietism or a mere "personal relationship" with God (something I read often but never have been able to find in my bible) is not the answer to our corporately failing to follow Jesus and living as though He really meant what He said.
All the colony life in the world can't take the place of a relationship with Christ. It's a mirage, and of all the people on Mennonet, you should know that. Making one mistake in life can happen to anyone. But to want to make the same mistake again and hope it turns out differently, is not wise.
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Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

lesterb wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
lesterb wrote: I don't know. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I live among probably a dozen Hutterite colonies. We have people in our congregation who left that behind and others whose grandparents did. The Hutterite culture is very difficult to shake off, and it seems to require strong natured individuals who can push their way to the front, even if others get trampled along the way. It seems to me that the dream that leads people in that direction is mostly a mirage. The struggles in Elmendorf and the recent events in Tasmania seem to be more proof of the same. Colony life promotes a spiritual survival of the fittest that tends to bring carnality to the top of the soup. Not every leader of a colony is carnal of course, but it takes a big fist to keep it all working.

"Fulfilled" dreams always eventually give way to reality. That is true whether you dream of communal living, or becoming a part of an Old Order group, or a conservative Anabaptist group in any of Ernie's classifications. It all has to start with having a relationship with God where we are, and then following God as He leads us through that relationship. God doesn't lead people to Utopia--there is no place with that name on planet earth (or Mars). He takes us where He can draw us closer to Him, and that might be someplace where we really need His presence.

We all have our dreams. Or did have. But in the end, reality is what counts. And that is based on the question: Am I following Christ and taking up my cross?
A brother at the Bruderhof used to say "Be careful when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you!

Hutterites, like Mennonites and Amish, have become an ethnic culture. If the Hutterites have spiritual and cultural failings it is not because their ancestors (the first generation of Anabaptists) failed to surrender all and give themselves 100% to the mission of Jesus and His kingdom. Turning to Pietism or a mere "personal relationship" with God (something I read often but never have been able to find in my bible) is not the answer to our corporately failing to follow Jesus and living as though He really meant what He said.
All the colony life in the world can't take the place of a relationship with Christ. It's a mirage, and of all the people on Mennonet, you should know that. Making one mistake in life can happen to anyone. But to want to make the same mistake again and hope it turns out differently, is not wise.
Are you saying the positive things we can read about colony life within early Anabaptism is only ever a mirage? Because that is what it sounds like, as us "seekers" all referenced something that we have not found today(besides maybe Josh). It is our relationship with Christ that is supposed to bring us together, not living in a colony bringing us to Christ - I think that is obvious to most of us.

I am also wondering about the context of your reference of not repeating a mistake? If we all took that advice in the context as far as I understand it, in regards of Anabaptist Evangelism and joining an Anabaptist fellowship, then I imagine any success of effective evangelism in having people join the church would be much much closer to zero...
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silentreader
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by silentreader »

Are John's words a factor in this conversation?
1 John 4:20-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
Footnotes:
[a]1 John 4:20 Some manuscripts how can he
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lesterb
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by lesterb »

Wade wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
A brother at the Bruderhof used to say "Be careful when you point a finger, there are three pointing back at you!

Hutterites, like Mennonites and Amish, have become an ethnic culture. If the Hutterites have spiritual and cultural failings it is not because their ancestors (the first generation of Anabaptists) failed to surrender all and give themselves 100% to the mission of Jesus and His kingdom. Turning to Pietism or a mere "personal relationship" with God (something I read often but never have been able to find in my bible) is not the answer to our corporately failing to follow Jesus and living as though He really meant what He said.
All the colony life in the world can't take the place of a relationship with Christ. It's a mirage, and of all the people on Mennonet, you should know that. Making one mistake in life can happen to anyone. But to want to make the same mistake again and hope it turns out differently, is not wise.
Are you saying the positive things we can read about colony life within early Anabaptism is only ever a mirage? Because that is what it sounds like, as us "seekers" all referenced something that we have not found today(besides maybe Josh). It is our relationship with Christ that is supposed to bring us together, not living in a colony bringing us to Christ - I think that is obvious to most of us.

I am also wondering about the context of your reference of not repeating a mistake? If we all took that advice in the context as far as I understand it, in regards of Anabaptist Evangelism and joining an Anabaptist fellowship, then I imagine any success of effective evangelism in having people join the church would be much much closer to zero...
I was talking to Wayne. He tried being a member with the Bruderhof and it was disastrous for him. Now it's turned out to be a disaster in Tasmania as well.

When the first Anabaptists banded together and piled all their money and earthly goods on a cloak under a tree, it was for a good cause and met a need. The problem came when the Hutterites started to depend on being part of a colony for their salvation, putting the colonies ahead of Christ.
Last edited by lesterb on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sudsy
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote: I'm not sure how to respond to that, perhaps I shouldn't try lest I get both feet in my mouth.
Looking at the Acts "church", I think it says that they had all things common, and those that "had" shared with those that "had not". One of the reasons this was happening, I believe, and anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, was that large numbers of Jewish people from other countries had come to Jerusalem perhaps for the Passover, and/or for the Feast of Weeks, and in all the uproar surrounding the crucifixion and the following rumors about a resurrection, had never gone back to their home countries. So in a very real sense they had forsaken everything, they were seekers, wanting to become part of this new "Christian church".
In order for that to work, there had to be others who had not given up everything in the same way who were able to provide for the needs of those who had given up everything. This was indeed a powerful form of evangelism for any "outsiders" who saw that happening.
It is here, I believe, where we Mennonites lack, and I say Mennonites because I can not speak for other Anabaptists.
One of our problems, and this may be flogging a dead horse, is that we are convinced that good stewardship involves looking after our own things, whereas Biblical good stewardship is actually looking after God's things that He has put in our care, which good stewardship means we are eager to meet the needs of those who have needs that we are able to serve.
I think the practise of making sure everyone in the church has their basic needs met is required of us. And we can even share whatever we have if it is needed by anyone else in the local church. If someone needs a riding lawn mower, anyone who has one will be glad to lend it out. But even here people in the world have social groups that do this kind of thing. I have neighbours that will lend me whatever I need and they know I will do likewise.

So, what we do within our Christian communities like sharing isn't necessarily going to impress outsiders. However, when we have this attitude and willingness to treat our stuff the same with the unchurched, especially when there is a cost to us but we lend or give it freely, this, I believe does reflect the value we place on temporal stuff. And for this to happen, we need to have relationships with unchurched and get to know them and their primary concerns. If our primary concern is for the unchurched to join us in being a Kingdom person and having the gift of eternal life, sharing and even losing temporal stuff would be well worth it.

And as for being known for our love one for another - how does this impress the unchurched from the type of love they can experience in worldly social groups ? Perhaps this is shown by our refusal to slander other Christians in or outside our brand of Christian practise. And other ways that just are exceptional to what the world does. Like ?
I thought it was starting to get through but I think not... It seems to come back to money which really isn't the point. There is something tied up in the forsaking all and vulnerability that is absolutely key that I just can't get the words to articulate. I appoligize, I am at a loss in putting it into the right words...
Seems like we are somehow talking past each other as I don't believe what I said above was about money. If forsaking all means walking away from everything there is about our current life, even the good things such as family and jobs, then I do not believe that is the community Jesus was suggesting we form. Imo, He was talking to those who literally followed Him around for 3 years like many that have gone off into the foreign mission field today. Their calling required this kind of forsaking. Jesus calls us to be lights where we live and some He calls to forsake everything and others not. However, we need to be willing to forsake all should He require us to. You may not agree with me here.

No need to apologize for us struggling to communicate our thoughts. I, too, feel at times what I feel in my heart I just can't express like I would ike to and it is missed by others.
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Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

silentreader wrote:Are John's words a factor in this conversation?
1 John 4:20-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
Footnotes:
[a]1 John 4:20 Some manuscripts how can he
Yes. Another excellent point that ties in with forsaking all. We think you are or could be (part of) the fulfillment of Jesus telling us when we forsake all including family that much more family will we have. (My paraphrase...). That is another part of the early church and early Anabaptists that is so very compelling.
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Sudsy
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Sudsy »

A reply to something Wayne said -
Turning to Pietism or a mere "personal relationship" with God (something I read often but never have been able to find in my bible) is not the answer to our corporately failing to follow Jesus and living as though He really meant what He said.
When I speak of a "personal relationship" with God, I'm thinking about what Jesus had with the Father. Jesus did not suggest everything we do be a community involvement. He said, go into your closest to pray (be alone with God). Don't do your giving to be seen by men. Don't let on that you are fasting. And Jesus often went aside to be alone to talk with the Father. These are things I see as a 'personal relationship' with God. There is a very individual walk with God required while also being part of a community of believers. It sounds sometimes like the community thing is put higher than this one on one with God. Just do what the community agrees on and God will be pleased. But I think Jesus said He didn't do anything that He didn't first see the Father doing. Being alone with the Father was extremely important to His ministry.

I believe today Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit to guide us. The Spirit guides each of us as He sees fit, gives out gifts as He determines and has His own timings and ways in our sanctification. That is why I support a church that is unified in allowing the Holy Spirit to do what He does best. Preach the Word and allow the Holy Spirit to direct each one in their practise.

But getting back to evangelism, what do we think the world is looking for in a walk with God ? I don't believe they are that drawn to God through many of our practises. So, why do we continue with them ? They haven't reached the unchurched in the past and what is different today ?

Got to go for now, our house is full of women.
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silentreader
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:A reply to something Wayne said -
Turning to Pietism or a mere "personal relationship" with God (something I read often but never have been able to find in my bible) is not the answer to our corporately failing to follow Jesus and living as though He really meant what He said.
When I speak of a "personal relationship" with God, I'm thinking about what Jesus had with the Father. Jesus did not suggest everything we do be a community involvement. He said, go into your closest to pray (be alone with God). Don't do your giving to be seen by men. Don't let on that you are fasting. And Jesus often went aside to be alone to talk with the Father. These are things I see as a 'personal relationship' with God. There is a very individual walk with God required while also being part of a community of believers. It sounds sometimes like the community thing is put higher than this one on one with God. Just do what the community agrees on and God will be pleased. But I think Jesus said He didn't do anything that He didn't first see the Father doing. Being alone with the Father was extremely important to His ministry.

I believe today Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit to guide us. The Spirit guides each of us as He sees fit, gives out gifts as He determines and has His own timings and ways in our sanctification. That is why I support a church that is unified in allowing the Holy Spirit to do what He does best. Preach the Word and allow the Holy Spirit to direct each one in their practise.

But getting back to evangelism, what do we think the world is looking for in a walk with God ? I don't believe they are that drawn to God through many of our practises. So, why do we continue with them ? They haven't reached the unchurched in the past and what is different today ?

Got to go for now, our house is full of women.
And you have no room, I take it? :lol:
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silentreader
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by silentreader »

Wade wrote:
silentreader wrote:Are John's words a factor in this conversation?
1 John 4:20-21 English Standard Version (ESV)
20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
Footnotes:
[a]1 John 4:20 Some manuscripts how can he
Yes. Another excellent point that ties in with forsaking all. We think you are or could be (part of) the fulfillment of Jesus telling us when we forsake all including family that much more family will we have. (My paraphrase...). That is another part of the early church and early Anabaptists that is so very compelling.
I think what I'm hearing, and this is probably just as relevant in the Personal Conviction thread, is that we "churched" people are sitting in our insulated enclaves and watching over each other with our uniform expectations of each other (which nobody else understands) and saying to each other, "I'm OK and you're OK, let's get on with our own lives" as we sing "This World is Not My Home."
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silentreader
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by silentreader »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:A reply to something Wayne said -
Turning to Pietism or a mere "personal relationship" with God (something I read often but never have been able to find in my bible) is not the answer to our corporately failing to follow Jesus and living as though He really meant what He said.
When I speak of a "personal relationship" with God, I'm thinking about what Jesus had with the Father. Jesus did not suggest everything we do be a community involvement. He said, go into your closest to pray (be alone with God). Don't do your giving to be seen by men. Don't let on that you are fasting. And Jesus often went aside to be alone to talk with the Father. These are things I see as a 'personal relationship' with God. There is a very individual walk with God required while also being part of a community of believers. It sounds sometimes like the community thing is put higher than this one on one with God. Just do what the community agrees on and God will be pleased. But I think Jesus said He didn't do anything that He didn't first see the Father doing. Being alone with the Father was extremely important to His ministry.

I believe today Jesus left us with the Holy Spirit to guide us. The Spirit guides each of us as He sees fit, gives out gifts as He determines and has His own timings and ways in our sanctification. That is why I support a church that is unified in allowing the Holy Spirit to do what He does best. Preach the Word and allow the Holy Spirit to direct each one in their practise.

But getting back to evangelism, what do we think the world is looking for in a walk with God ? I don't believe they are that drawn to God through many of our practises. So, why do we continue with them ? They haven't reached the unchurched in the past and what is different today ?

Got to go for now, our house is full of women.
And you have no room, I take it? :lol:
Tupperware party maybe.
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Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
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