Anabaptist Evangelism

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
silentreader
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by silentreader »

Wade wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Yes, if all we have is food and clothing, we should be content. This, to me, says even if we only have the bare necessities in life we shouldn't complain. Then he goes on to say 'those who desire to be rich' not 'those who are rich'. One may be poor but still have a desire to be rich and therefore are not content in the state they are in. He goes on to say the root of all kinds of evil is the love of money not money itself. The world seeks contentment in things of this world, which are all temporal. For the Christian contentment is not found in worldly stuff. As he wrote before 'godliness with contentment is great gain'. Find our contentment in godliness, which he previously said are found in the teachings of Jesus.
And one may be rich and have a desire to be rich...(or richer)
The love of money...the love of our master...it is through these cravings ...this could refer to rich or poor.
But I'm not sure what this all has to do with Anabaptist Evangelism.
It has a huge bearing on Anabaptist Evangelism or so two of us "seekers" tried to say... :roll:
OK, sorry, I guess I missed that, as in?
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Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

Wayne in Maine wrote:
Wade wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote: And he said he would give back four times what he defrauded anyone. I expect Zaccheus died with a great store in heaven and not much left on earth.

There is a thread concerning wealth throughout Luke's Gospel. We do not pay much attention to it. If we did I think most of us would go away sadly.
I agree. I have only met two families that agree with this in how they live... When we literally forsook all we found out the hard way about the support emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc. required to make this work from a Christian brotherhood working together. I believe the early Christians and early Anabaptists understood this as they actually did it and is a major factor in how joining them was so compelling. I don't see people today really getting it and the only way is to actually do it.
Compelling indeed, in spite of the risks and costs.
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Sudsy
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:
Wayne in Maine wrote:
Wade wrote:
I agree. I have only met two families that agree with this in how they live... When we literally forsook all we found out the hard way about the support emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc. required to make this work from a Christian brotherhood working together. I believe the early Christians and early Anabaptists understood this as they actually did it and is a major factor in how joining them was so compelling. I don't see people today really getting it and the only way is to actually do it.
Compelling indeed, in spite of the risks and costs.
Sorry Wade, I guess I missed the evangelism point here too. Help me understand this better, please. Are you saying that early Anabaptism attracted people to their community living because they made sure everyone in their community did not lack for the necessities of life when they were willing to give up everything they had ? Therefore, this was a form of evangelizing to live this way and it compelled others to join them ?

I will wait for clarity before further commenting on this.
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Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

I really am having a hard time communicating this so please bare with me. And I am also not certain it is so easily understood without relating in experience.

I believe much of the early church and early Anabaptists literally forsook all. Again I think this can get confusing in communicating unless someone has done this but I will try...

For some of us seekers today this is reality in that we have actually left behind our friends, family, careers, reputation, belongings, savings, our securities, our beliefs, our old world views, our idols, our homes, lands, properties, countries, our church, and etc. to follow Christ and often in the hopes of being joined to a group that mutually has the same heart in seeking the kingdom of God first at the risk of being very vulnerable. - Faith.

Since there are so few churches today that promote such it isn't like we can just attend the next church down the street, rather we may have to move many miles if we believe in close brotherhood, that love of Christ that pulls us together, making this very literal.

We don't do this because we are looking for financial support but see the oneness in that forsaking all for Christ in the early church and early Anabaptists had.

Following Christ calls for a full commitment and when we are literally forsaking all we are stepping out in faith in a big way that I used to think was understood by Mennonites today - I believe I was wrong. For example that is why when we see you won't watch TV but yet will read Readers Digest we are utterly confused at the contradiction of applying a principle where ever you deem important instead of across every part of life in that full commitment to God. It isn't about focus on us and personal conviction or a requirement that we forsake all, it is a life devoted to God that these things can take place. Granted often we are immature spiritually in many ways.

If you are committed to God completely and that shows across every aspect of your life, if people see you joyfully accepting the spoiling of your goods, laughing or smiling in the face of death or your own suffering because of that eternal hope, showing love to others harming you, etc., etc. then people notice and it attracts their focus toward God the very source of this supernatural power.

That is a stronger force in evangelism, sincere wholehearted commitment to God in death and denial of self and we will be light less because we are trying to evangelize and more because we see who God is and are alive unto Him.
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Soloist
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Soloist »

its posts like this that make me feel sad that there isn't an early (and I do mean early) Hutterite group to join...
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Sudsy
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Sudsy »

Wade wrote:I really am having a hard time communicating this so please bare with me. And I am also not certain it is so easily understood without relating in experience.

I believe much of the early church and early Anabaptists literally forsook all. Again I think this can get confusing in communicating unless someone has done this but I will try...

For some of us seekers today this is reality in that we have actually left behind our friends, family, careers, reputation, belongings, savings, our securities, our beliefs, our old world views, our idols, our homes, lands, properties, countries, our church, and etc. to follow Christ and often in the hopes of being joined to a group that mutually has the same heart in seeking the kingdom of God first at the risk of being very vulnerable. - Faith.

Since there are so few churches today that promote such it isn't like we can just attend the next church down the street, rather we may have to move many miles if we believe in close brotherhood, that love of Christ that pulls us together, making this very literal.

We don't do this because we are looking for financial support but see the oneness in that forsaking all for Christ in the early church and early Anabaptists had.

Following Christ calls for a full commitment and when we are literally forsaking all we are stepping out in faith in a big way that I used to think was understood by Mennonites today - I believe I was wrong. For example that is why when we see you won't watch TV but yet will read Readers Digest we are utterly confused at the contradiction of applying a principle where ever you deem important instead of across every part of life in that full commitment to God. It isn't about focus on us and personal conviction or a requirement that we forsake all, it is a life devoted to God that these things can take place. Granted often we are immature spiritually in many ways.

If you are committed to God completely and that shows across every aspect of your life, if people see you joyfully accepting the spoiling of your goods, laughing or smiling in the face of death or your own suffering because of that eternal hope, showing love to others harming you, etc., etc. then people notice and it attracts their focus toward God the very source of this supernatural power.

That is a stronger force in evangelism, sincere wholehearted commitment to God in death and denial of self and we will be light less because we are trying to evangelize and more because we see who God is and are alive unto Him.
Thanks Wade. You point out some important things to consider in our faith walk.

A couple of thoughts. I believe in the OP, Greg felt a strong conviction that basically evangelism should be more about 'being' than it is 'doing'. Scripture does say that God needs to be first in our lives and that there will be signs in us of what a new life in Christ should reflect. Areas such as the world will know we are Christians by our love for one another. Good deeds are what Jesus said is another area where the light of the Gospel is to shine. Caring about the souls of those whom Christ came to save is having the heart of God. The Kingdom life is described as righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit in another description. Putting others above ourselves. All the descriptive fruit of the Spirit. Demonstration of spiritual gifts, etc, etc.

But I doubt any of us have reached that level of spirituality to be as Christ like as these descriptions say. There are no church brotherhoods, inside or outside Anabaptism, who demonstrate to the world such an abundant life in Christ that people run to become part of as far as I know. We are all a work-in-process. Rules and ways of non-conformity that churches adopt are not having this effect and some of this is more a turn off than being compelling. In a church you will always have believers at various levels of being Christ like. So, searching for the most committed group of believers that reflect all these Christ like characteristics, imo, is a waste of time and effort. Perhaps in a very small group, like the very first description we find in Acts, might be the closest and even there they had a couple that were not fully committed. I Revelation we read that none of these early churches were the perfect brotherhood.

What I think is most missing, at least it is in my life, is that we can 'put on' an outward display of a brand of Christianity but it is just a form of godliness and lacks any real power to influence others toward God. The attention is on ourselves and how 'spiritual' we are when we are not very spiritual at all. After watching the OP video I could relate to much of what Greg experienced in trying to evangelize but as he said, what was the end result. If we are planting seed and/or watering, there still needs to be a harvest that is visible, imo.

I am not attracted to search after any degree of Mennonite practise as I don't see it bearing much fruit. What I mean by fruit here is drawing people to Christ and not their form of being a Christian. Something big is missing and you will find that in most all churches. Of course, there will be excuses reasons given for this. I just haven't bought them.

But individually we have the freedom to chose to be as fully committed as we can and don't get too concerned about the perceived lack of commitment in others. It comes down to our personal relationship with God. As far as evangelizing if we are 'being' more like Jesus, then we will be 'doing' (lead by the Spirit) to be a means God uses to draw others to Himself.

I welcome any push back on my views so feel free to disagree whenever and wherever.
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Wade
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Wade »

Sudsy wrote:
Wade wrote:I really am having a hard time communicating this so please bare with me. And I am also not certain it is so easily understood without relating in experience.

I believe much of the early church and early Anabaptists literally forsook all. Again I think this can get confusing in communicating unless someone has done this but I will try...

For some of us seekers today this is reality in that we have actually left behind our friends, family, careers, reputation, belongings, savings, our securities, our beliefs, our old world views, our idols, our homes, lands, properties, countries, our church, and etc. to follow Christ and often in the hopes of being joined to a group that mutually has the same heart in seeking the kingdom of God first at the risk of being very vulnerable. - Faith.

Since there are so few churches today that promote such it isn't like we can just attend the next church down the street, rather we may have to move many miles if we believe in close brotherhood, that love of Christ that pulls us together, making this very literal.

We don't do this because we are looking for financial support but see the oneness in that forsaking all for Christ in the early church and early Anabaptists had.

Following Christ calls for a full commitment and when we are literally forsaking all we are stepping out in faith in a big way that I used to think was understood by Mennonites today - I believe I was wrong. For example that is why when we see you won't watch TV but yet will read Readers Digest we are utterly confused at the contradiction of applying a principle where ever you deem important instead of across every part of life in that full commitment to God. It isn't about focus on us and personal conviction or a requirement that we forsake all, it is a life devoted to God that these things can take place. Granted often we are immature spiritually in many ways.

If you are committed to God completely and that shows across every aspect of your life, if people see you joyfully accepting the spoiling of your goods, laughing or smiling in the face of death or your own suffering because of that eternal hope, showing love to others harming you, etc., etc. then people notice and it attracts their focus toward God the very source of this supernatural power.

That is a stronger force in evangelism, sincere wholehearted commitment to God in death and denial of self and we will be light less because we are trying to evangelize and more because we see who God is and are alive unto Him.
Thanks Wade. You point out some important things to consider in our faith walk.

A couple of thoughts. I believe in the OP, Greg felt a strong conviction that basically evangelism should be more about 'being' than it is 'doing'. Scripture does say that God needs to be first in our lives and that there will be signs in us of what a new life in Christ should reflect. Areas such as the world will know we are Christians by our love for one another. Good deeds are what Jesus said is another area where the light of the Gospel is to shine. Caring about the souls of those whom Christ came to save is having the heart of God. The Kingdom life is described as righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit in another description. Putting others above ourselves. All the descriptive fruit of the Spirit. Demonstration of spiritual gifts, etc, etc.

But I doubt any of us have reached that level of spirituality to be as Christ like as these descriptions say. There are no church brotherhoods, inside or outside Anabaptism, who demonstrate to the world such an abundant life in Christ that people run to become part of as far as I know. We are all a work-in-process. Rules and ways of non-conformity that churches adopt are not having this effect and some of this is more a turn off than being compelling. In a church you will always have believers at various levels of being Christ like. So, searching for the most committed group of believers that reflect all these Christ like characteristics, imo, is a waste of time and effort. Perhaps in a very small group, like the very first description we find in Acts, might be the closest and even there they had a couple that were not fully committed. I Revelation we read that none of these early churches were the perfect brotherhood.

What I think is most missing, at least it is in my life, is that we can 'put on' an outward display of a brand of Christianity but it is just a form of godliness and lacks any real power to influence others toward God. The attention is on ourselves and how 'spiritual' we are when we are not very spiritual at all. After watching the OP video I could relate to much of what Greg experienced in trying to evangelize but as he said, what was the end result. If we are planting seed and/or watering, there still needs to be a harvest that is visible, imo.

I am not attracted to search after any degree of Mennonite practise as I don't see it bearing much fruit. What I mean by fruit here is drawing people to Christ and not their form of being a Christian. Something big is missing and you will find that in most all churches. Of course, there will be excuses reasons given for this. I just haven't bought them.

But individually we have the freedom to chose to be as fully committed as we can and don't get too concerned about the perceived lack of commitment in others. It comes down to our personal relationship with God. As far as evangelizing if we are 'being' more like Jesus, then we will be 'doing' (lead by the Spirit) to be a means God uses to draw others to Himself.

I welcome any push back on my views so feel free to disagree whenever and wherever.
I much agree but when I read about Mennonites I was not told this... So now I don't really believe those books I read as much. Nor then do I have an easy time believing what Mennonites today write about the early Anabaptists either... Is it just cheery picking the best and leaving out all the rest?!!!! So I gave up and bought house so my family has somewhere to live and am trying to be light with starting over. I would love to forsake all again to join with others with a vision like the early Christians and/or early Anabaptists but I'm doubtful it exists today and after being burnt I doubt I could convince others in my home to do it again anyway. So I guess this is all just dreams. :blah: :blah: :blah:
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silentreader
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by silentreader »

Wade wrote:I really am having a hard time communicating this so please bare with me. And I am also not certain it is so easily understood without relating in experience.

I believe much of the early church and early Anabaptists literally forsook all. Again I think this can get confusing in communicating unless someone has done this but I will try...

For some of us seekers today this is reality in that we have actually left behind our friends, family, careers, reputation, belongings, savings, our securities, our beliefs, our old world views, our idols, our homes, lands, properties, countries, our church, and etc. to follow Christ and often in the hopes of being joined to a group that mutually has the same heart in seeking the kingdom of God first at the risk of being very vulnerable. - Faith.

Since there are so few churches today that promote such it isn't like we can just attend the next church down the street, rather we may have to move many miles if we believe in close brotherhood, that love of Christ that pulls us together, making this very literal.

We don't do this because we are looking for financial support but see the oneness in that forsaking all for Christ in the early church and early Anabaptists had.

Following Christ calls for a full commitment and when we are literally forsaking all we are stepping out in faith in a big way that I used to think was understood by Mennonites today - I believe I was wrong. For example that is why when we see you won't watch TV but yet will read Readers Digest we are utterly confused at the contradiction of applying a principle where ever you deem important instead of across every part of life in that full commitment to God. It isn't about focus on us and personal conviction or a requirement that we forsake all, it is a life devoted to God that these things can take place. Granted often we are immature spiritually in many ways.

If you are committed to God completely and that shows across every aspect of your life, if people see you joyfully accepting the spoiling of your goods, laughing or smiling in the face of death or your own suffering because of that eternal hope, showing love to others harming you, etc., etc. then people notice and it attracts their focus toward God the very source of this supernatural power.

That is a stronger force in evangelism, sincere wholehearted commitment to God in death and denial of self and we will be light less because we are trying to evangelize and more because we see who God is and are alive unto Him.
I'm not sure how to respond to that, perhaps I shouldn't try lest I get both feet in my mouth.
Looking at the Acts "church", I think it says that they had all things common, and those that "had" shared with those that "had not". One of the reasons this was happening, I believe, and anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, was that large numbers of Jewish people from other countries had come to Jerusalem perhaps for the Passover, and/or for the Feast of Weeks, and in all the uproar surrounding the crucifixion and the following rumors about a resurrection, had never gone back to their home countries. So in a very real sense they had forsaken everything, they were seekers, wanting to become part of this new "Christian church".
In order for that to work, there had to be others who had not given up everything in the same way who were able to provide for the needs of those who had given up everything. This was indeed a powerful form of evangelism for any "outsiders" who saw that happening.
It is here, I believe, where we Mennonites lack, and I say Mennonites because I can not speak for other Anabaptists.
One of our problems, and this may be flogging a dead horse, is that we are convinced that good stewardship involves looking after our own things, whereas Biblical good stewardship is actually looking after God's things that He has put in our care, which good stewardship means we are eager to meet the needs of those who have needs that we are able to serve.
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Sudsy
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote: I'm not sure how to respond to that, perhaps I shouldn't try lest I get both feet in my mouth.
Looking at the Acts "church", I think it says that they had all things common, and those that "had" shared with those that "had not". One of the reasons this was happening, I believe, and anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, was that large numbers of Jewish people from other countries had come to Jerusalem perhaps for the Passover, and/or for the Feast of Weeks, and in all the uproar surrounding the crucifixion and the following rumors about a resurrection, had never gone back to their home countries. So in a very real sense they had forsaken everything, they were seekers, wanting to become part of this new "Christian church".
In order for that to work, there had to be others who had not given up everything in the same way who were able to provide for the needs of those who had given up everything. This was indeed a powerful form of evangelism for any "outsiders" who saw that happening.
It is here, I believe, where we Mennonites lack, and I say Mennonites because I can not speak for other Anabaptists.
One of our problems, and this may be flogging a dead horse, is that we are convinced that good stewardship involves looking after our own things, whereas Biblical good stewardship is actually looking after God's things that He has put in our care, which good stewardship means we are eager to meet the needs of those who have needs that we are able to serve.
I think the practise of making sure everyone in the church has their basic needs met is required of us. And we can even share whatever we have if it is needed by anyone else in the local church. If someone needs a riding lawn mower, anyone who has one will be glad to lend it out. But even here people in the world have social groups that do this kind of thing. I have neighbours that will lend me whatever I need and they know I will do likewise.

So, what we do within our Christian communities like sharing isn't necessarily going to impress outsiders. However, when we have this attitude and willingness to treat our stuff the same with the unchurched, especially when there is a cost to us but we lend or give it freely, this, I believe does reflect the value we place on temporal stuff. And for this to happen, we need to have relationships with unchurched and get to know them and their primary concerns. If our primary concern is for the unchurched to join us in being a Kingdom person and having the gift of eternal life, sharing and even losing temporal stuff would be well worth it.

And as for being known for our love one for another - how does this impress the unchurched from the type of love they can experience in worldly social groups ? Perhaps this is shown by our refusal to slander other Christians in or outside our brand of Christian practise. And other ways that just are exceptional to what the world does. Like ?
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Re: Anabaptist Evangelism

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote:its posts like this that make me feel sad that there isn't an early (and I do mean early) Hutterite group to join...
Perhaps there are... I’ve met a number of people who would be worthy to count Peter Reidemann in their midst if he showed up today.
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