S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Biblical Anabaptist
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

lesterb wrote:It's true that sexually abusing children is an atrocity. It should never be tolerated in the church. Having said that, I've also noticed that it is pretty popular today for people to come out of the closet with a story, and maybe even write a book. So, like most such things, I'm guessing that truth to be somewhere in between. I also know a woman who wrote a book on her experiences who didn't even remember that she had been abused until the counselor suggested it. Eventually, after some prodding, her memories came flooding back. Were they real? Or only provoked by the power of suggestion? Who knows, but even non-Christian counselors are speaking up about such possibilities.
http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/joy-mourning_1.html
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by ragpicker »

There’s a thread been started where we can discuss sexual abuse issues without the poison of personal vendettas. See you all there?

http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1020
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Josh
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Josh »

ragpicker wrote:
Josh wrote:My reward for questioning how this could be okay was being referred to Stutzman for counselling, who told me:
You never went to Stutzman for counseling. I don't know why you claim you did. Perhaps to give your other claims credibility? I don't know.
Yeah, I did (over the phone), but this discussion with you won’t go anywhere useful if you think I’m a liar.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Josh »

ragpicker wrote:
Josh wrote:Other conservative groups put on conferences for free and have a freewill offering, or Else (like KFW) have a very modest charge for lodging. I can think of dozens of conferences like this.
First you complained that they charge exorbitant prices (insinuating profits are made) and I told you all their conferences have to be subsidized by other sources (including freewill offerings). So now you switch gears and complain about their model. Apparently charging a very reasonable fee per person and then making up the difference in cost with freewill offerings is not good enough for you. What is it that you want Josh?
Josh wrote:Other conservative groups don’t hold their conference on a cruise ship.
Neither does Stutzman. So why are you falsely insinuating he does?

Look, you don't like Steve Stutzman. I get that. I have plenty of other friends that don't. I have plenty of other friends that do. Either way, it doesn't bother me in the least. I don't go around defending him or praising him. It is what it is. I got involved here for several reasons, most are better left unsaid. I would ask for honesty about your motivations and in your accusations.

I don't know what Steve did or didn't tell you. Some of what you claimed he said, with the slant you give it, is 180 degrees from everything I have ever heard him say and teach. I do know that the situation you speak of is a messy situation and it's not been resolved. I am not defending the man you speak of. I don't know what Steve did or didn't tell you about the matter, and I suppose it's possible Steve made mistakes.

I have a proposal. Let's get the man you speak of, his boys, you, and Steve in a room together, with a fair moderator, and let's get this resolved. Would you be open to that?
Sure, I’d be open to that.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by RZehr »

Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
lesterb wrote:It's true that sexually abusing children is an atrocity. It should never be tolerated in the church. Having said that, I've also noticed that it is pretty popular today for people to come out of the closet with a story, and maybe even write a book. So, like most such things, I'm guessing that truth to be somewhere in between. I also know a woman who wrote a book on her experiences who didn't even remember that she had been abused until the counselor suggested it. Eventually, after some prodding, her memories came flooding back. Were they real? Or only provoked by the power of suggestion? Who knows, but even non-Christian counselors are speaking up about such possibilities.
http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/joy-mourning_1.html
Does anyone know who psychoheresy-aware.org is? I don't, just curious. I see the authors name, but don't know who it is.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Valerie »

ragpicker wrote:
lesterb wrote:I have my concerns about the direction he has taken, and some of what he taught in the past.
Fair enough. I can tell you with 100% certainty he's not 100% right. None of us are. At any given point there's thousands of conversations on the internet of Christians calling each other heretics and worse over doctrinal differences. So you or I disagreeing doesn't inherently make us right or wrong.
lesterb wrote:What he teaches today, I don't know, and what direction he is travelling today, I don't know.
Ask him.
lesterb wrote:I probably went to far in my post above.
Eh... maybe a little. Many of us are prone to do that now and then.
lesterb wrote:It's really hard for me to read a thread like this. I'm part of the conservative Mennonite Church by choice, and we often get bashed by people who think we are just Pharisees. Now we are made out to be sexual predators as well.

I'm sorry you feel attacked. I've met an angry person or two who think you're all sexual predators but there's healing for them too.

However, there are sexual predators in your(our) midst. There are also leaders covering up for it. That's serious stuff. Nationwide, Eastern, Pilgrim, none are exempt.
lesterb wrote:I have met many conservative Mennonites and gotten to know many church leaders and church members. Of all of those, I know for sure that at least eight or ten women have suffered this kind of abuse. I had several friends who admitted to committing this kind of sin with their daughters. I could probably put together a list of a half dozen others.
I don't know what all circles you have moved in, but this stuff is rampant in many places. I have heard similar sentiments about, say conservative Mennonite churches in southern Ontario. But there's many, many documented cases of it right there.
lesterb wrote:I'm sure that I don't know everyone who has faced this or committed such sins. But a percentage that high seems incredible in light of the people I've known.
I say this gently, is it possible that it was happening under your nose and you were unaware?
lesterb wrote:Now if you include Old Order Mennonite and Amish, that percentage would go up a fair bit. I don't know how much.
I don't know. I've run across so much in the conservative Mennonite churches, I just don't know if it's higher in the Amish and OO or not.
lesterb wrote:I agree that this kind of conduct is inexcusable. But I know that I have NEVER treated one of my daughters that way. Why should I be made to feel guilty about being part of what I consider a Biblical group of people?
I don't think you feeling guilty is helpful at all. I am sorry if anything I am saying is making you feel that.

You seem to feel attacked because of your affiliation. I hate that.

I would ask you to consider this, the conservative Mennonite church has protections the Catholics do not have at this point. Absent those protections, they will be pushed into the news and viciously torn to shreds by the vile news media. Wouldn't it be better to acknowledge the problem and work towards getting it cleaned up?

Again, I am sorry you are feeling attacked. I wish you wouldn't. That's not in my heart.

I'll tell you a story to help you understand. Once when I was talking on Facebook about something or another in the conservative Mennonite churches and getting jumped for being "just bitter" an outsider who knew me well piped up. "Y'all are wrong. Richard doesn't hate you all. He loves you. He just thinks you can do better." Or something like that. For once I felt understood. I broke down and cried. Yes, I am no longer strict Mennonite. But this is my culture, my people. I want the darkness to be exposed to the light, so that they may walk in freedom. There's nothing in me that wants them destroyed. Some may disagree with me, but there's nothing in me that says they have to put off their lifestyle to walk free. I'm not your enemy.

All that said, I want you to feel understood. Please tell me if I am not getting it right.
RP, you brought me to tears with this one-
I have followed Steve on FB in the past because I know people personally, that have been helped by his ministry-I found his posts to be helpful, inspirational, and at a time I was hurting, they were helping me-
I also follow you at times (although I don't have a lot of time for FB!) and have appreciated your heart as well-

That being said, when I was an early seeker to Anabaptism approx a decade or so ago- I started hearing about these sexually abused stories from others- those who had left Anabaptism, and those who were still in one of the denominations-
because I had put Anabaptists up on a pedestal as a denomination- I was shocked & shook up (somewhat like Wade had expressed) and very discouraged over learning about all this- but then I asked myself why? The Bible is full of those 'in the faith' who have failed. One thing we know, those who have been sexually abused, often become abusers- some of this it seems gets passed down- I have also heard that in the strictest communities, when these women (or boys) that have been molested or have a need to get help, the Bishop or ministers are either unable to know exactly how to deal with it so don't properly handle it, or I have also heard that the blame is often put on the women- I believe over time, when these things started 'coming to the light' being exposed there was a recognized need for these ministries that try to help those who have been hurt-

There was an obvious need for these ministries because there is a real problem-
Face it, these ministries would not exist if there wasn't a need.
Also, these ministries would dry up and go away- and people wouldn't be willing to 'pay' - if there haven't been enough testimony to the fact that there are myriads of people who needed help, and myriads of people that have got help- through ministries like Steve's- I know people who were personally helped and so much so, they brought others.

A man with experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument-

I know a former member of MD who left Mennonites because he told me this problem is too real for him to want to be a Mennonite any longer- I don't know if 'this person' felt guilty by association or discouraged the problems were not being properly addressed.

Naturally we know these problems exist everywhere- I just think that those of us who are or were seekers, found ourselves shocked & discouraged- just last year (or maybe the year before?) I heard of another 'fallen' Anabaptist who I admired even, but then found out that he had molested some of his children- it broke my heart, and my friend who knew him was very grief stricken by it- it does make me wonder if some have left the OO because of this but then need healing themselves, if it had been 'done to them' than are they more prone to 'do to others'-

It is right that the problem has come to light and ministries are trying to help.
It is wrong to falsely accuse or make any assumptions-
It is also wrong to blame a whole denomination when there is sin in the camp- unless the sin is being dismissed or covered up way too much simply to not hurt the reputation of the denomination (and this would apply to ANY denomination).
Last edited by Valerie on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by ragpicker »

Would to God that conferences such as Stutzman puts on would fade into oblivion due to lack of need.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Valerie »

Josh wrote:
ragpicker wrote:Let's deal with the charge for these conferences since it's been brought up twice, then maybe we can move on to things that really matter. It's usually a break even or money losing proposition. Now you may not like the conferences themselves, and I am OK with that. But they are far from a money making scheme. They are subsidized by other sources. So with this information, can we drop that part and move on?
Other conservative groups put on conferences for free and have a freewill offering, or Else (like KFW) have a very modest charge for lodging. I can think of dozens of conferences like this.

Other conservative groups don’t hold their conference on a cruise ship.
Josh wrote:
Other conservative groups don’t hold their conference on a cruise ship.
Josh that was not a "Conference" cruise- if I remember right, it was more of a musical cruise where anyone interested could go- I remember Joy (who posts on here) and I wanted to go on that, but it was not one of those conferences that we have been discussing on here- a totally different purpose. (I still wish we would have gone!) There was going to be some pretty good music (Mennonite type) on the cruise- I was drawn to it for that alone, not normally interested in cruises but that one sounded very inspirational!

Perhaps you assumed these were 'conference' cruises- but at least acknowledge this is incorrect-

You see- it is about Music!
http://www.stutzmansingers.com/Cruise-Info.html

Time out for a song (below link) by the Stutzman Family Singers- perhaps this song could end this thread? Boot started a good one that really addresses the issue-

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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Sudsy »

Thanks Valerie for the link to that hymn. I was blessed.

Regarding this type of sinning that goes on, it really doesn't shock me as it might others. When sexual sinning of Christians started to come out into the open (RC priests, the Jimmy Swaggart types, etc) it really did shock some people and some to the extent of leaving that group of Christians. Now perhaps a reason for this was that they believed that their leaders or piety of dedicated members was such that this kind of thing just could not or would not occur. And for some it became a blow to their thinking that they were better Christ followers than other groups and this tainted that view.

But to me, that is a wrong understanding of how we as believers can fall or slip up to sin when we let down our guard and 'walk in the flesh' as the scripture puts it. Our life is a 'putting off' of these things and a 'putting on' of Christ-like ways. When looking at 1 Cor 10 we are given examples from the OT of fallen people of God and ends with "Now all these things happened unto them by way of example, and are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Therefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall." Many I have heard testimonies from, including my own life, think certain sinning just could not happen in their life. I doubt Peter ever thought he would deny Christ before men 3 times but he did.

Someone recently referred to that verse of "working out our salvation in fear and trembling". To me, this refers to this attitude of thinking I've arrived spiritually and not to think I can take my private or open practises with no fear/respect to the fact that sin always has a reaping to it. Temptations of all sorts will be there regardless of how isolated we try to become in some areas.

Personally, I am not drawn to Anabaptism by the piety of other Anabaptists but rather by the core beliefs as I understand them. We are imperfect people and what can be more easily seen in our open practises is not always a reflection of our relationship with God. Our minds are constantly to be renewed by the Holy Spirit. Moment by moment we are to not give way to the flesh and God has given us the power to do this 'putting off'. Yet we must co-operate in this.

Anyway, I believe our brand of Christ following can become an idol and we can get into comparing our group with other groups with an attitude that we are the better Christians in our practise. Imo, this is a big problem area to consider as there is so much comparison of how conservative or liberal your Anabaptist group is to others. But thats another story.

So, I agree that this molesting is a sin against God and others but not one God cannot forgive and heal. It is not the permanent damage that some make it out to be as God heals all wounds. His grace is sufficient, as He told Paul, and through these things we realize just how much we need His grace. Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Soloist »

ragpicker wrote: You certainly "know" a lot that isn't so. No skin off my back, just wanted it on the record for any readers that your post isn't necessarily accurate.
I would be fascinated knowing what I said that was incorrect so that I can speak truth. Going and saying there is deception in my post and then not saying what doesn't help much. Most of what I said is first hand experience with him in one state. My exposure is limited out of state but I've been supported in these views by others who would know him.
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