S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Soloist
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Soloist »

Just a note on the charging of money, I've talked to someone who ran something similar, even same basic teaching. If need be I can give names in a private message. They charged 70 for 3 whole days including a rental facility and 3 meals (good ones according to my wife) and just broke even. Stutzman, whether or not he does good, charges somewhere around 200 for 3 nights at a church that doesn't charge him for use. According to the same person (who supports Steve and is involved in his ministry) the people (other than Steve) are not compensated in any way. One has to question his financial side of his ministry when you consider his costs which he openly states people would not value the teaching without the cost.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by ragpicker »

Soloist wrote:
ragpicker wrote: You certainly "know" a lot that isn't so. No skin off my back, just wanted it on the record for any readers that your post isn't necessarily accurate.
I would be fascinated knowing what I said that was incorrect so that I can speak truth. Going and saying there is deception in my post and then not saying what doesn't help much. Most of what I said is first hand experience with him in one state. My exposure is limited out of state but I've been supported in these views by others who would know him.
Inaccuracy does not = deception. I want to make it clear that I was not accusing you of deception.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Soloist »

ragpicker wrote: Inaccuracy does not = deception. I want to make it clear that I was not accusing you of deception.
I appreciate that and maybe I responded a little harshly. I still would like to know.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

RZehr wrote:
Biblical Anabaptist wrote:
lesterb wrote:It's true that sexually abusing children is an atrocity. It should never be tolerated in the church. Having said that, I've also noticed that it is pretty popular today for people to come out of the closet with a story, and maybe even write a book. So, like most such things, I'm guessing that truth to be somewhere in between. I also know a woman who wrote a book on her experiences who didn't even remember that she had been abused until the counselor suggested it. Eventually, after some prodding, her memories came flooding back. Were they real? Or only provoked by the power of suggestion? Who knows, but even non-Christian counselors are speaking up about such possibilities.
http://www.psychoheresy-aware.org/joy-mourning_1.html
Does anyone know who psychoheresy-aware.org is? I don't, just curious. I see the authors name, but don't know who it is.
I have no idea who the author is or anything about his credibility. I have, however, for some time been wondering about all the "counseling" that is "needed" these days. Were problems just ignored in the past, are we facing problems today that did not exist 1/2 century ago, or is the need for counseling self-perpetuating? If we are indeed facing problems today that we did not face 50 years ago, what has changed?
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Heirbyadoption »

I hesitate to say much on here, but at the risk of being accused of lighting a fire and running, I'll step in for a couple comments before this wraps up.
1, Josh's claim to have simply posted an article without comment about Steve Stutzman quoting a 67% abuse rate (rather than 34% or 52% or whatever people are apparently much more ready to accept) out of a desire to discuss the article (rather than Steve) is just as suspect (if not more, based on his personal issues with Steve) as the 67% abuse rate that some of you rather heatedly have contested. Judas Maccabeus, perhaps I could encourage you to consider that a little.
2, Josh, for me to state this, or to object to what rapidly became a slew of negative comments, assumptions, and misleading statements against Steve's quote figures, his ministry, his intentions, his qualifications and more, is not a personal attack on you. There's no point in repetitively stating that you are viciously attacked whenever you say something about Steve. He's no sacred cow, I'm simply stating what the evidence looks like and where this conversation was going. Protest it all you wish, and yes, I know you have denied any attack or slander against Steve as far as your original intentions go. We can take your word for it, but even if we do, the evidence here hasn't changed. I encourage you to follow through with Ragpicker on that holing up in a room with the Hartville bunch and Steve and working things out - clearly its still eating at you, and if sin was covered over by them, then rightly so. Perhaps God is calling you to still be a voice to make things right there.
3, Ragpicker spoke my mind, mostly. And Steve can answer for himself, but if you don't know Steve, be slower to label him or condemn something about his ministry. People seemed awfully quick to do so here in this thread, surprisingly. if somebody has had a less than positive experience with Steve, I feel for you, honestly. But as far as the subject of abuse in the CA world goes, you're wrongly judging based on your baggage.
4, I spent a day in a room with about 20 counselors and pastors and bishops (from about as many conferences) a couple weeks ago discussing this very subject, and we had everything from Groffdale (Joe Wengers) to OO Amish bishops to Beach to BMA and everything in between. I'm not convinced of the 67% either, but while I have some experience with situations through the CA world, A. I don't have nearly as much first hand experience with abuse situations as several of them (including Steve) do, and B. as has been futiley been stated in this thread a couple times, the bigger issue is what can be done about the issue. That particular day we also had 7 or 8 women from various conferences testify of their experiences with abuse within conservative anabaptism,along with testimony after testimony from the brothers there. It is real, it often is hidden by the power structures, the pride, and the legalism to which we as Plain and even Old Order Anabaptists are very, very prone, and it is perpetuated mostly by adults, sometimes even in connection with witchcraft (and I wish to God that were not true). We're not talking about children exploring their sexuality here.
5, lastly, I repeat my initial concern. Beyond the rank assumptions and inferences here, and a few outright accusations, this post is a shame to the testimony of Anabaptist Christianity. Start another one and look for ways to address the very real abuses that exist among us, and if you can somehow look past the 67% quote and recognize the reality that there are vast amounts of abuse among our people, perhaps we can begin to make a dent and save a few more.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by ragpicker »

Soloist wrote:
ragpicker wrote: Inaccuracy does not = deception. I want to make it clear that I was not accusing you of deception.
I appreciate that and maybe I responded a little harshly. I still would like to know.
Fair enough. Not looking to get into an argument with you, but I will honor your request. You seem sincere and I will honor that.
Soloist wrote:I cannot personally comment on him from first hand talking with him, but I know he's not in Conservative Mennonite circles.
I believe he is a member of what I consider a conservative Mennonite church. Lots of conservative Mennonites at his conferences. So I wouldn't think your comment is accurate here.
Soloist wrote:He does pop around Amish, Pentecostals and the lesser conservative groups.
No real quibble here, as long as you're not claiming he exclusively works with these. I am puzzled by the Pentecostals part. Can you specify which Pentecostals he associates with?
Soloist wrote:He is positively frowned on in my church. I'd personally like to know if his specific teachings came from somewhere older... I like the idea of looking at history to determine if its a good teaching or not.
No response needed. Just quoted so I don't leave anything out.
Soloist wrote:I've gone to the first night of one of his teachings but the cost of his seminars are prohibitive
That's not fair or accurate as a generalized statement. In a world where I regularly see 3 day seminars for $5,000 to $15,000, not including meals, $195 for roughly 40 hours of seminar, and full meals, is hardly prohibitive. Now for a person who is broke, yes, it might be. But that's not the measure of whether something should be considered prohibitive or not.
Soloist wrote:and they will not lower it because they think people will not value it unless they pay hefty prices.
I haven't ever heard Steve say this (that they won't lower them for this reason) per se. But it (the idea that people get more out of a seminar that costs them) is a principle that is true whether you and I like it or not. What I do know, is that I have been participated in conversations about how to lower the prices. So what you are claiming that they will not lower them for this reason, rings untrue to me. There is another ministry out there that does charge quite a bit more and does specifically say this. Perhaps you have conflated the two?
Soloist wrote:I know the churches he frequents would not even openly call themselves Mennonites
That's unilaterally incorrect as a generalized statement. Does he show up at churches that don't openly call themselve Mennonite? Of course. But the vast majority of the churches he shows up at to sing are openly Mennonite.
Soloist wrote:and tend to hold a position of no standards in the church.
I don't examine the standards or lack thereof in every church he shows up at. If that's important to you, you are free to do so.
Soloist wrote:A youtube clip I saw that his daughter took gives the impression that they only head cover when going to certain churches.
That is unilaterally incorrect. Now, do his married daughters cover all the time? I don't know. That's not Steve's call. I can't say his wife covers all the time, but even when we visit in their home or they in ours, she has always been covered.

Hope this is helpful.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by GaryK »

Ragpicker, I appreciate your approach and humility in this whole matter.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Neto »

This is only marginally related to this thread, but a Bible college friend had linked to this article on FaceBook.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/201 ... ospel.html

Here is one quotation I thought was pertinent to the discussion here, especially as referring to the case of which Josh has spoken.
First, the gospel of Jesus Christ does not need your protection. It defies the gospel of Christ when we do not call out abuse and enable abuse in our own church. Jesus Christ does not need your protection; he needs your obedience.
Note: If you want to read this, and cannot access this article for some reason, I have saved a PDF copy, and will email it to anyone who requests it. I won't past it in here, because it might be a violation of copyright law.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by ragpicker »

GaryK wrote:Ragpicker, I appreciate your approach and humility in this whole matter.
Thank you for your kind words. Means a lot.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

ragpicker wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:First off, I will CONTINUE to question that statistic. Many, if not most, conservative churches in PA have implemented a rather comprehensive policy in the light of the laws passed after the Jerry Sandusky incident. This originated from the EPMC, but our conference follows the same policies. Do they make it impossible....no. Do they make it far more difficult, absolutely. Any leader of a conservative church in PA is likely to be able to get you a copy.

Do I believe some of this goes on in conservative churches....absolutely. Does it go on in most places in our society, again absolutely. Does it go on in other churches, absolutely. We just got over a HUGE scandal with group called Sovereign Grace down here. There are entire blogs devoted to exposing this in evangelical churches. Is one case of this far too many, absolutely. What one sees personally affects ones view of it, and if it happens to you, or in your church it will appear like it happens everywhere, all the time. Is there any empirical evidence that it is anywhere near that high, or even approaching it? None has been offered, only N=1 stories. Does this guy have a slanted view?

https://www.facebook.com/straitpathsfoundation/

Scroll down. When you sell seats at a conference for almost 200$ a head to solve the latent effects of this sort of problem, this make me wonder a bit. If people willing to pay that much are the ones you have the most contact with, I would venture to say that your sample is badly skewed.

I have not seen a shred of proof that it is as big of a problem as he makes it out to be? No, and I am open to listening to someone who has actually done the hard work rather than guessing.

J.M.
Let's deal with the charge for these conferences since it's been brought up twice, then maybe we can move on to things that really matter. It's usually a break even or money losing proposition. Now you may not like the conferences themselves, and I am OK with that. But they are far from a money making scheme. They are subsidized by other sources. So with this information, can we drop that part and move on?
I am not commenting on whether or not such charges are justified or not, I am, however, commenting on their effect on the data he is likely using to derive this incredible number. They are a powerful self-selector.

Ok, looks like I will have to explain it again. Say you want to find what percentage of the population likes "Hot, Green Mexican Pepper Sauce"? You could position yourself at the entrance to the mall and ask every 5 people, get an answer and derive your statistic. That would be a more or less random sample. But, instead, lets say you choose your sample by asking every 5 people at Jose's"Hot, Green Mexican Pepper Sauce" emporium, and derive your answer. You can imagine that your answer would be far different, and the percentage you derive would be far higher in the second sample.

The reason is that the second sample has already self-selected to buy from Jose's"Hot, Green Mexican Pepper Sauce" emporium. It has applied a filter to the data, and intentionally or unwittingly the data is skewed, and does not reflect the true number of "Hot, Green Mexican Pepper Sauce" lovers in the population. This is something you must rigorously guard against when deriving statistics of any sort.

My take on this is that he, because of the "filter" of dealing with people who have purchased a 195$ conference, have self selected, and the data he is reporting is hopelessly skewed, and does not represent the general conservative mennonite population. This could be accidental, or that he simply is unaware of how to derive an accurate picture. I would have to see his data, including when, where, and how his numbers were derived to get a full picture. However, if he is simply pulling the number out of thin air, that is the value it has.

On a personal note, I have no ax to grind personally, I know little about the guy. I am a conservative mennonite by choice, and certainly did my due diligence before casting my and my loved one's lot in with this movement, which I have never regretted. If I have any evidence that abuse of women was even a fraction of this number I see quoted here, I would have ran and gone and joined some other group. From what I have seen, enough safeguards are in place that I am comfortable that at least my church is doing all it can.

Still one is too many. It happens in evangelical churches, (I could tell you stories.....), it happens in roman catholicism and it happens in the secular world. It happens in mennonite churches of all stripes. It is likely more "out there" than before because of the ability of victims to connect the dots in ways that would have been impossible before. A LARGE problem was found in missionary boarding schools that did not come to light until the internet let these than young adults connect, and find they were not alone. Most of these have been shut down. So the occurrence may not actually be increasing, but the ability to uncover it is. In a way, the internet has done a service in that area.

I abhor abuse of any sort, and if I become aware of it, you can be sure action will be taken. Both my wife and I are "Mandatory Reporters" under our states laws, because of our occupations. I have never seen anything, and I know what to look for. I feel for those who have been touched by this personally, and hope you continue to find healing.

J.M.
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