S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
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Chris
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Chris »

67% OF WOMEN?

So what this means is 2/3 of Anabaptist women over the age of 18 have been sexually abused. I'm sorry, this is bologna, unless abused means "she got a sexual comment she didn't like". I don't know of any Anabaptist woman that wouldn't instantly tell somebody if they were getting abused.

If this means 67% of Anabaptist women at one time were sexually abused (even in their childhood), I call bologna again.

The problem with sexual abuse is it is an instant witch hunt and scarlet letter. It happens.... But you can almost throw out any fact about sexual abuse and it seems believable. Consider if somebody said the elder/bishop of your church was caught molesting little girls. Like seriously. Think on it. Could the man really say/do anything to defend himself especially if he has alone time with children? Nope, not really.

67% just seems way way too high. Sorry.

As a man I keep my church self defended to the best of my ability. First you don't spend alone time with children. You walk into a bathroom, if there is a little boy, you WALK OUT and wait for him to leave. You never get alone with other people's children for any reason. Your presence should be public at all times. It is how I roll I guess. I know it seems a bit pathetic, but any accusations you'll never be able to defend yourself. ... With that said a big group of children is different than being alone with one.... So Sunday School=way different.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Sudsy »

Chris wrote:67% OF WOMEN?

So what this means is 2/3 of Anabaptist women over the age of 18 have been sexually abused. I'm sorry, this is bologna, unless abused means "she got a sexual comment she didn't like". I don't know of any Anabaptist woman that wouldn't instantly tell somebody if they were getting abused.

If this means 67% of Anabaptist women at one time were sexually abused (even in their childhood), I call bologna again.

The problem with sexual abuse is it is an instant witch hunt and scarlet letter. It happens.... But you can almost throw out any fact about sexual abuse and it seems believable. Consider if somebody said the elder/bishop of your church was caught molesting little girls. Like seriously. Think on it. Could the man really say/do anything to defend himself especially if he has alone time with children? Nope, not really.

67% just seems way way too high. Sorry.

As a man I keep my church self defended to the best of my ability. First you don't spend alone time with children. You walk into a bathroom, if there is a little boy, you WALK OUT and wait for him to leave. You never get alone with other people's children for any reason. Your presence should be public at all times. It is how I roll I guess. I know it seems a bit pathetic, but any accusations you'll never be able to defend yourself. ... With that said a big group of children is different than being alone with one.... So Sunday School=way different.
Regarding the bolded statement above. Imo, Anabaptist women could have much to lose by telling anyone they have been sexually abused. A friend of mine whose father was an elder in a Mennonite church would beat on his mother and she never shared it with anyone. The children grew up and left the church when they got older wanting nothing to do with their father's Christianity. And if an Anabaptist man has a distorted view of what it means for a woman to be submissive there can be sexual abuses going on within a marriage. Sex without both consenting is rape. Is this being preached ?

Imagine an Anabaptist woman speaking up like some are out in the world about being sexually abused and a group of elders determining whether the woman was lying or the man. And this woman having little chance, if excommunicated, of supporting herself to live. And then there is the possible breakup of any family with children. How much of sexual, verbal and/or physical abuse actually goes on, God knows.

I'm glad to see women speaking out and hopefully children will be encouraged to speak up much earlier and being taught what it is to be abused. Men have got away with far too much abusing throughout history. And of course, there is the problem of false accusations but speaking up, imo, has to right the ship quicker than remaining quiet.
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Chris
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Chris »

Sudsy wrote:
Chris wrote:67% OF WOMEN?

So what this means is 2/3 of Anabaptist women over the age of 18 have been sexually abused. I'm sorry, this is bologna, unless abused means "she got a sexual comment she didn't like". I don't know of any Anabaptist woman that wouldn't instantly tell somebody if they were getting abused.

If this means 67% of Anabaptist women at one time were sexually abused (even in their childhood), I call bologna again.

The problem with sexual abuse is it is an instant witch hunt and scarlet letter. It happens.... But you can almost throw out any fact about sexual abuse and it seems believable. Consider if somebody said the elder/bishop of your church was caught molesting little girls. Like seriously. Think on it. Could the man really say/do anything to defend himself especially if he has alone time with children? Nope, not really.

67% just seems way way too high. Sorry.

As a man I keep my church self defended to the best of my ability. First you don't spend alone time with children. You walk into a bathroom, if there is a little boy, you WALK OUT and wait for him to leave. You never get alone with other people's children for any reason. Your presence should be public at all times. It is how I roll I guess. I know it seems a bit pathetic, but any accusations you'll never be able to defend yourself. ... With that said a big group of children is different than being alone with one.... So Sunday School=way different.
Regarding the bolded statement above. Imo, Anabaptist women could have much to lose by telling anyone they have been sexually abused. A friend of mine whose father was an elder in a Mennonite church would beat on his mother and she never shared it with anyone. The children grew up and left the church when they got older wanting nothing to do with their father's Christianity. And if an Anabaptist man has a distorted view of what it means for a woman to be submissive there can be sexual abuses going on within a marriage. Sex without both consenting is rape. Is this being preached ?

Imagine an Anabaptist woman speaking up like some are out in the world about being sexually abused and a group of elders determining whether the woman was lying or the man. And this woman having little chance, if excommunicated, of supporting herself to live. And then there is the possible breakup of any family with children. How much of sexual, verbal and/or physical abuse actually goes on, God knows.

I'm glad to see women speaking out and hopefully children will be encouraged to speak up much earlier and being taught what it is to be abused. Men have got away with far too much abusing throughout history. And of course, there is the problem of false accusations but speaking up, imo, has to right the ship quicker than remaining quiet.
I agree with your statement, not so sure if it should be "preached". "Preaching" itself I believe is for the teachings of Jesus. I mean if a man is going to be a Christian, obviously consent (or lack thereof) should pretty much be crystal clear. I sometimes wonder if certain subjects are belittling to a congregation. Sometimes I wonder if we need a good sermon on "Don't do Crystal Meth" for an hour... Sort of the same thing.

However, you are absolutely right though. There are things I suppose...
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Josh »

There’s certainly a place for discipleship to teach someone what is right and what is wrong. That may need to take place in a smaller setting. In my church group, we have special classes for young people they take either after a recommitment in their late teens / early 20s, or before they get married / go do something like VS work or teaching.

It is sex segregated so it is a more appropriate place to discuss such topics.

Unfortunately, one of my experiences was a husband and wife being told the exact opposite of what Sudsy is saying. I’ve already spoken about it at length here, but I’m not really sure how that kind of a problem can be fixed. Maybe it would be good for more men to think about how they want their own daughters to be treated by their husbands.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by temporal1 »

Page 7: This thread. From January 2018
appleman2006 wrote:From what I know of Steve he would be perfectly fine with you questioning the exact number he quoted. I personally hope that number is too high but as someone said way back, if it is half that high it is way too high.

:arrow: Rather than fight over the exact number which I would question that anyone actually knows,
can we at least identify with his heart cry and his trying to look for answers.

I know for a fact that Steve cares so much about this issue that he is willing to step to the side and let others more centered in the community actually take the lead as long as things get done. And I believe positive steps are in place to do some positive things and give leaders the tools they need to bring healing and help to the people they serve.

:arrow: I personally feel way out of my league on this topic but one thing I can do is pray.

I will also say that I am thankful to be part of a church group that has leadership that
5 years ago already saw the importance along with the council of the whole brotherhood and the local police department of setting up a sexual abuse policy for our group that outlines how cases would be handled as well as sets up guidelines for prevention.
This was done even though we had no known specific issues.

BTW the local police department was extremely helpful and even grateful that we came to them for advice before there was an issue.
Page 6: August 2018
“Sexual abuse in Churches”
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... l&start=50
Signtist wrote:
RZehr wrote: I'd like to see what policy Eastern wrote. If anyone can provide me with one, I thank you.
I like the thought of a policy for the church. It wouldn't have to be super defined, but I like that idea.
We have our own schools. I think there should be teaching that a student can feel safe confiding in the teachers.
Not all families practice the same level of modesty in the home. Whatever level we have, we should take the time to teach our children that this here is okay, and this is not. Teach them about grooming, and that certain things are not okay regardless who it is. Even if it is one of their parents or grandparents, sibling, anyone!
Tell them exactly what to do if certain things happen, and exactly what to do in certain scenarios. Remind them. Don't teach the older ones and then forget about the younger ones.
:arrow: Appleman's church has a "policy" posted in the restroom.
Pretty sure I took one of the little guys out during a service just so I could read and photograph it!
I don't have a copy of it, but wish he would post it here, sometime.

I think it may be valuable to have something similar for our schools, but haven't raised the idea at a school meeting yet.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. I know it annoys some folks.
I think this thread is important, and only stumbled upon it now.
i like referencing former threads. :D
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by temporal1 »

Perhaps appleman will share an update about how his church is doing, ^^^ and possibly post an example of the “policy” posted in the church restroom? ..
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by RZehr »

I'd appreciate a copy of applemans and a copy of Easterns if anyone can provide one.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Szdfan »

There have been concerns raised about Steve Stutzman independent of what Josh says here.

A year ago Stutzman was suspended from ASAA because of concerns raised by Trudy Metzger that he had allowed a known sexual predator to come to participate in ASAA meetings without the knowledge or consent of survivors there.

http://mennoworld.org/2018/07/30/news/s ... mmunities/
An organization that addresses sexual abuse in conservative Anabaptist communities has suspended the vice chair of its board following allegations that he failed to protect abuse victims from a known sex offender.
On her blog, Metzger raised allegations that Stutzman, whose ministry offers spiritual healing and deliverance, had failed to warn vulnerable people about their interactions with a self-admitted sex offender.
ASAA’s Facebook post that announced Stutzman’s suspension identified the offender as DD and said “his known criminal activity has been reported and is in the hands of the law. We strongly denounce DD’s actions and recommend that there be adequate protection in place and public warning to prevent any further harm.”
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Josh »

Here's an "update" from Stutzman, dated July 1:
Steve Stutzman wrote:Sexually graphic post;
How can you tell who is a victim?
If someone was sexually abused at 5, that makes them a victim, right?
But if they are doing things to other littler kids, at 9, or 12, then who is the victim? At 17, they have consensual sex with a 25 year old, and that makes them a rape victim, right? And at 18, they are still committing sexual offenses against others, are they a victim or a perp? Next year, they are assaulted, are they now a victim, or a perp? Then they mess with a kid the next year........ ?????
Would it make a difference to you, in the story above, if it were a boy or a girl?
Should the Justice be served from a victim standpoint, or a "lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the -key" viewpoint?

I realize this may just sound like a convoluted story to most of you, and that's ok; but where I live, it is a real thing I deal with. I had a call last week, concerning a 9 year old girl, who was a full-on predator. Obviously, recognizing how God made little girls, I realize she didn't make this up on her own, and there is far more to the story. But the thing is, to the next 5 year old being violated by her, it doesn't matter WHY she (or he ) is doing it, it only matters that they carry the damage for the rest of their life.

Give me a rational response on how to sort thru this stuff. Keep the drama and nasty comments for somewhere else, please, thank you. Love to hear your thoughts, and how your concepts would help the person spiritually.
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Re: S. Stutzman claims 67% of Anabaptist women have been sexually abused

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote:Here's an "update" from Stutzman, dated July 1:
Steve Stutzman wrote:Sexually graphic post;
How can you tell who is a victim?
If someone was sexually abused at 5, that makes them a victim, right?
But if they are doing things to other littler kids, at 9, or 12, then who is the victim? At 17, they have consensual sex with a 25 year old, and that makes them a rape victim, right? And at 18, they are still committing sexual offenses against others, are they a victim or a perp? Next year, they are assaulted, are they now a victim, or a perp? Then they mess with a kid the next year........ ?????
Would it make a difference to you, in the story above, if it were a boy or a girl?
Should the Justice be served from a victim standpoint, or a "lock-them-up-and-throw-away-the -key" viewpoint?

I realize this may just sound like a convoluted story to most of you, and that's ok; but where I live, it is a real thing I deal with. I had a call last week, concerning a 9 year old girl, who was a full-on predator. Obviously, recognizing how God made little girls, I realize she didn't make this up on her own, and there is far more to the story. But the thing is, to the next 5 year old being violated by her, it doesn't matter WHY she (or he ) is doing it, it only matters that they carry the damage for the rest of their life.

Give me a rational response on how to sort thru this stuff. Keep the drama and nasty comments for somewhere else, please, thank you. Love to hear your thoughts, and how your concepts would help the person spiritually.
This is really not that complicated:

Simply stated, child sexual abuse is a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation. It can be direct (molestation or rape) or indirect (flashing, exposure to pornography or sexual language etc.).

Obviously how we deal with 9 year old perpitrators is going to be different then how we deal with 39 year old perpitrators. But that would be the same for any other crime.

As for Stutzman's origional claim of 67%? I haven't read through this whole thread and don't know anything about Steve Stutzman except for what I've googled and it appears that he has some sort of self-directed ministry in this direction. So I have no idea where he found those numbers and if they are based on any kind of valid surveys or just something he pulled out of thin air. But I would point out that outside the Anabaptist community the estimated numbers are as follows (from Wikipedia):
The global prevalence of child sexual abuse has been estimated at 19.7% for females and 7.9% for males. Most sexual abuse offenders are acquainted with their victims; approximately 30% are relatives of the child, most often brothers, fathers, uncles, or cousins; around 60% are other acquaintances, such as "friends" of the family, babysitters, or neighbors; strangers are the offenders in approximately 10% of child sexual abuse cases. Most child sexual abuse is committed by men; studies on female child molesters show that women commit 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys and 6% of offenses reported against girls.
As for the numbers of adult women who have been abused, those numbers are trickier to find.

In terms of actual rape, one report says 1 in 5 American women and 1 in 71 American men have been raped in their liftimes, and 1 in 10 American women have been assaulted by a partner: https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/fil ... ence_0.pdf

On the other hand, recent surveys suggest that 85% of American women have been subject of sexual harrasment: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... harassment

Sexual abuse as the term is used by Stutzmen probably falls somewhere in-between outright rape and more mudane forms of sexual harrasment.

We, of course, expect BETTER from church communities than the outside world. There is lots of anecdotal evidence that rates of abuse are HIGHER in anabaptist communities than the outside world. Various news stories and lots of people who point to anabaptist culture and traditions as part of the problem. Of course the lack of actual data supporting this claim doesn't mean it isn't true. Because I suspect this is an area where actual data just doesn't exist. I don't think churches are collecting it and I doubt anyone else is collecting this type of data in these mostly closed communities.
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