Pecking order, social standing and status within Plain Mennonites

[Hats Off]

I am not Jesus - I can't speak with the Authority He had. I am more apt to be heard when I speak respectfully. He had no need to.

This is the conclusion I have come to as well. Jesus had no character deficiencies that diminished his message whenever he attempted to speak. Men and women with fewer character deficiencies are able to speak with greater authority.

But it also depends on where they fit in the pecking order.

[Ernie]

I am not Jesus - I can't speak with the Authority He had. I am more apt to be heard when I speak respectfully. He had no need to.

This is the conclusion I have come to as well. Jesus had no character deficiencies that diminished his message whenever he attempted to speak. Men and women with fewer character deficiencies are able to speak with greater authority.

But it also depends on where they fit in the pecking order.

True. Guess it depends on whether you are talking about actual authority or pseudo authority.

[DrWojo]

This is the conclusion I have come to as well. Jesus had no character deficiencies that diminished his message whenever he attempted to speak. Men and women with fewer character deficiencies are able to speak with greater authority.

But it also depends on where they fit in the pecking order.

True. Guess it depends on whether you are talking about actual authority or pseudo authority.

As our preacher has said a number of times, “If Christ Himself walked into any number of Churches today, would the people in the congregation accept His message or throw Him out from their midst?” I have often wondered about it.

[Josh]

I am not Jesus - I can't speak with the Authority He had. I am more apt to be heard when I speak respectfully. He had no need to.

This is the conclusion I have come to as well. Jesus had no character deficiencies that diminished his message whenever he attempted to speak. Men and women with fewer character deficiencies are able to speak with greater authority.

But it also depends on where they fit in the pecking order.

Indeed. Having fewer character deficiencies (or being perceived as having fewer) definitely boosts one's rank in the pecking order.

Of course, that means the entire Plain system seems to revolve around managing scandals and ensuring that rather serious character deficiencies remain secret. This is probably the part of the "pecking order" that is the most troublesome to me.

For me personally, I'm happy to be at the "bottom" of the pecking order. My priority is the gospel, because the gospel and Jesus changed my life and saved me from sin. Being highly esteemed by men, marrying into an influential family, having lots of wealth and business success, etc. just seem like they shouldn't really be goals for the honest believer.

[steve-in-kville]

[
Maybe better than burning bridges. I had to retreat back over a bridge I could have justified burning. I was glad the bridge was still there.

You never know what the future holds. Life is long (God willing).

J.M.

Reminds me of a quote I heard some years ago, that I always keep in mind when it comes to sour relationships:

"Don't burn a bridge with me, and then expect me to send a life boat later!"

[RZehr]

With Eastern, I wonder how much (if any) their youth activity policy has on this subject. My understanding is they do not have "youth group activities" sponsored by the church. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. However, they do permit volleyball and softball games when they are under the family authority instead. Not sure if I'm saying this right. For example, if my parents are okay with me inviting my friends to play a game of ball, then that is okay. But the church won't organize and provide an adult to oversee it.

I think what happens is they popular or liberal ones then are invited to the ball game. The unpopular ones aren't. The conservatives aren't because their parents wouldn't allow them. Then you end up with a clique being formed within which communication is developed by virtue of familiarity, which keeps them in the know on current events.

We had organized and scheduled youth actives as a church. Growing up I remember there was at times events a teenager would arranged volley, basket, softball game and invited certain friends and not the whole youth group in the name of "managing the size". I remember my occasionally my parents forcing us to invite certain people who would not have been invited otherwise.

[Josh]

One suggestion I have is to try to relocate one’s self to the bottom of the pecking order, and then see what God can do.

Perhaps you’ll get a chance to bless the lowly and minister to their lives - just like Jesus did

[RZehr]

I haven't been active on this thread for a while, so some of what I'm thinking may be late to the party.

Here are some factors that can make a difference in pecking order, social standing, status, popularity, or influence. I think these factors are present in most segments of society, not just in plain Mennonite churches. It says something about the functionality or dysfunctionality of a church if what is true in general society is also true in the church.

1. Above average means. Financial means can be a factor but it is not a determining factor. Some well-to-do people never become popular because they are missing some of the following.
2. Above average social skills. Some people grow up in loving/caring homes which results in them having good social skills. Others simply have natural ability at making friends, getting along with people, etc.
3. Above average mental ability. Some people are "quick on their feet" mentally and have many ideas and thoughts.
4. Above average communication skills. Some people are very persuasive and dynamic speakers.
5. Moderate or slightly progressive views. Diehard conservatives tend not to be very popular. However they may still be given considerable influence at times. Children of diehards don't typically fare very well.
6. Ability to determine what is fashionable or trendy. Folks who are always behind the times tend to not be as popular.
7. Family tree. Being part of certain family trees can help. Family members tend to look out for each other, unless a family member takes a position that is very different from the other family members.
8. Refined culture. Every established culture has its definition of refinement. Folks who differ from this are considered contrary, unrefined, or odd balls.
9. Cutting edge. Some folks have a knack for sensing what is "cutting edge" and they align themselves accordingly.

Are there more things to add to this list?

The NT does indicate that some will have more status in the church than others. Here are some that come to mind?
1. People who have given their time and lives for the sake of the gospel.
2. People who show good wisdom.
3. People who are full of the Holy Spirit.
4. People who are of good character and good report.
5. People who are mighty in the scriptures.
6. People who demonstrate the fruits of the spirit and full of good deeds.

Are there more things to add to this list?

Okay so let’s imagine someone who checks all those boxes. What can and should this person do to encourage an egalitarian church? What shouldn’t he do?

I assume that you are referring to boxes 1-9.

It is hard for me to imagine someone fitting the second set 1-6 and still fit 1-9.
Becoming a radical follower of Jesus in a way that would make a person fit 1-6, is the best way I know to move a church or at least a segment of a church, toward the kind of pecking orders that are present all around us in society.

In particular, a person with high social standing could seek to raise others up by identifying with them and mentoring them (like Jesus did with disciples and the poor) rather than identifying with the ones higher up.

I grew up in a family that was on the bottom, and I would have really appreciated it when those with social standing chose to befriend me rather than hang out with "the pack". It didn't happen very often. If the upper folks would agree among themselves that they are going to break up the monopoly and diversify among the rest in the congregation, it would be an amazing example and case study for other churches.

I don't see a difficulty in an overlap of much of these lists. Some are harder than others. There certainly can be conflict in these two lists, but I'm not sure conflict must be inherent for the believer, especially given that the first list is relative.
I don't think I hang out with "the pack", (whoever that is) any more than anyone. Could that the feeling of being excluded exaggerated from reality at least a bit? But exaggerated or not, if people feel that way, then something is wrong.

One suggestion I have is to try to relocate one’s self to the bottom of the pecking order, and then see what God can do.

Perhaps you’ll get a chance to bless the lowly and minister to their lives - just like Jesus did

I don't see serving others changes ones church social standing at all.
1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

[Josh]

I don't see serving others changes ones church social standing at all.

Associating at all with older, single people, socially awkward people, “creepers”, or unhealthy / really unattractive people will negatively affect your social standing.

I made a decision that Jesus associated with the very lowly, so I should too, regardless of impact on my social standing. I think if Jesus showed up and preached to us, most of us would be condemned like the Pharisees were. Then he would walk out and go spend time with tax gatherers, harlots, and all the other kinds of very undesirable people.

[RZehr]

I don't see serving others changes ones church social standing at all.

Associating at all with older, single people, socially awkward people, “creepers”, or unhealthy / really unattractive people will negatively affect your social standing.

Well I'm scratching my head. I guess it is possible that it would negatively affect your standing among a certain group of people who value exclusivity and are fearful of damaging their standing in someway. But wouldn't doing so, simply increase your popularity among the "older, single people, socially awkward people, “creepers”, or unhealthy / really unattractive people"? And if there are numerically speaking, more of these people thinking better of you because you are now friends, and you lose a few of the high status friends, then did you not only appreciate a net increase in popularity?

Warren Buffet said "If you've been in the [poker] game for 30 minutes and you don't know who the patsy is, you're the patsy". So I recognize that I may be that patsy on this subject, but I felt all my life that I can (and did) associate with anyone without regard to paying any social standing cost. I could be naive too, maybe I did pay a price. Or it could just be my personality.
To put it bluntly as possible, I do not have any fear of losing my "standing" by who I am friends within the church, and as far as being friends with the unconverted, I don't operate any differently than anyone else in the church. That is to say, we do befriend sinners while being cognizant of that evil communication corrupts good manners, and make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go; lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul.

But who decides who is where on the social ladder? I'm hearing on this thread (not specifically you alone) that it is solely or at least primarily the high ranked people who are deciding where people are or keeping people where they are. And I guess I don't see it as that simple, because I think for any group to have influence, whether in the church or in a nation, that power is bestowed upon them in some part by the populace. Am I wrong? In a church, if the majority, wherever they are at on the ladder, decide something is popular or unpopular, doesn't that make it so? I think the "popular" ones must have the tacit agreement by the others to be "popular", otherwise they aren't popular.