The Pilgrim Church, E. Hamer Broadbent

[Wade]

So, in conclusion, it is the "bad" things we do that allow us to maintain the good. If we become more open and inclusive, we become a group that no longer interests people, while we also lose out. I think we have concluded for some time now that the church that tries to be all things to all people is actually little good for anyone.

And that's why we give up on being accepted. However, I doubt all my children will be as intentional or find fellowship or possibly spouses worth while elsewhere and it sure would be nice for them to have a chance.

Wade, I have yet to hear a qualified reason why you would give up on being accepted.

I apoligize in advance if this sounds at all mean. I don't intend to and I am also feeling quite discouraged.

We couldn't afford a second vehicle for our children to got to the church school. And besides: I'm not willing or even able to submit to a church standard that compromises the biblical principle of being one with my wife if it would cause me to force her to send the children to church school if she doesn't want to. And if she left me because of this what then? I'm not submitting to send our children to a church school so I can be accepted just to have my wife divorce me and leave with the children anyway. I might as well just walk out on my family! - I don't think this fits with how Jesus talks about forsaking all.

We couldn't afford to pay our own health care. Nor do I trust from our experience that the church would support us either.

After being threatened we moved and the only place that I could get hired quickly to even support my family was a union job. Which I said before I would not do... But since I have worked at the other two non-union sawmills close to where we live I have had the opportunity to see the pros and cons of both sides and I am no longer convinced that I should quit and work in worse spiritual places so I can be accepted. I would love something different and am open to this but just like we are to be in the world but not of the world, so it is with a man raised atheist, threatened by a Mennonite after he had forsook all and so was chased off and has no support and is just working somewhere trying to care for his family. If someone doesn't like that then please don't load me up with more testing my sincerity and submission.

I'm completely sick of the manipulation and control that can be involved with acceptance. Maybe the heart of it is that I no longer believe that with at least some Mennonites it is about submission to one another but rather is about control and power. I'm trying to care for my family and although I don't want to paint with a broad brush I don't know where to go that I can trust a group enough.

#1 - I am not willing to compromise my marriage over an extra-biblical standard of church schooling while I was right that if the church would have just given us time it would have worked out as my wife did change her mind.

#2 - I'm not looking to get and don't want to be a burden on the churches finances.

#3 - I'm tired of changing jobs and the instability and stress it can create on my family. Nevermind all the moving and making close friendships just to be chased off by one person that is still in good standing with the rest of the group...

#4 - I don't see submission to a people that have little to no converts in their church being balanced when they claim they have always done it this way and it works! Please show me humility that I can trust you to.

If you add this all together maybe one day we will be at a point that none of these things will be a problem. The problem is that that can make me even more uncomfortable. While in this life we are NEVER there. It isn't about reaching some plateau to achieve acceptance, it is rather about heading the right direction. I really don't want to be part of a church that is all about plateau, that is no different than where we are now in a Baptist setting.

I love you so much that my heart aches to have fellowship and see nearly all the Mennonites I have ever met. It is the only place I feel home. I just want that back and I really don't care about being a member or acceptance anymore as that excitement has been completely squashed. I want to just be able to work and serve for Christ in the fear of God and not the fear of men alongside others that are doing the same. Maybe I am not applying things properly anymore and am not fit to be a member and it is my own fault. I am not looking for a guarantee for my children but just an example that is better than me and the surrounding world we are amongst here that lacks any Anabaptist group.

[Heirbyadoption]

JM, did you ever get hold of the book that Ernie recommended in the beginning of this thread? I've always been a bit leery of Broadbent's book because of the immense job it would be to find all of that source material. It seems odd that he can be that certain of so many things no one else seems to know about.

I'd like to have a second opinion on some of that and I thought maybe Kennedy's book would provide that?

The next book I'm planning to write for TGS is a story that starts in 284 (the year Diocletian was crowned emperor) and tells the story of the deception of the church during the 4th century. It is a very interesting period of history, and takes the church from being the persecuted church to being the persecuting church.

[If you watch my blog, you might see further details seeping through the cracks this fall...]

Yes, I have a copy of Kennedy, but I too have been up to my ears. I have been teaching at the Chinese fellowship more than usual, and they expect you to go an hour to an hour and a half! I am slogging through it. I will let you know what I think when I finish.

That sounds like an interesting project.

J.M.

Whats wrong with an hour and a half? Is that considered a tough job?

[Judas Maccabeus]

JM, did you ever get hold of the book that Ernie recommended in the beginning of this thread? I've always been a bit leery of Broadbent's book because of the immense job it would be to find all of that source material. It seems odd that he can be that certain of so many things no one else seems to know about.

I'd like to have a second opinion on some of that and I thought maybe Kennedy's book would provide that?

The next book I'm planning to write for TGS is a story that starts in 284 (the year Diocletian was crowned emperor) and tells the story of the deception of the church during the 4th century. It is a very interesting period of history, and takes the church from being the persecuted church to being the persecuting church.

[If you watch my blog, you might see further details seeping through the cracks this fall...]

Yes, I have a copy of Kennedy, but I too have been up to my ears. I have been teaching at the Chinese fellowship more than usual, and they expect you to go an hour to an hour and a half! I am slogging through it. I will let you know what I think when I finish.

That sounds like an interesting project.

J.M.

Whats wrong with an hour and a half? Is that considered a tough job?

Well, an hour and a half, to a bunch of Phd's, Postdocs and visiting scholars requires considerable preparation. They generally understand very little of the Bible when they come, and you really can't assume anything. Also, you would need source your major points, because they WILL ask questions. So yes, it can be difficult.

J.M.

[PeterG]

Well, an hour and a half, to a bunch of Phd's, Postdocs and visiting scholars requires considerable preparation. They generally understand very little of the Bible when they come, and you really can't assume anything. Also, you would need source your major points, because they WILL ask questions. So yes, it can be difficult.

That sounds fascinating. I'd like to hear more about this experience.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Well, an hour and a half, to a bunch of Phd's, Postdocs and visiting scholars requires considerable preparation. They generally understand very little of the Bible when they come, and you really can't assume anything. Also, you would need source your major points, because they WILL ask questions. So yes, it can be difficult.

That sounds fascinating. I'd like to hear more about this experience.

Chinese led ministers that has an "english" outreach to grad students, postdocs and visiting scholars from the mainland, but others show up as well. Happens every Friday, it begins with a potluck meal, followed by a lecture on a topic explaining some aspect of the Bible or Christianity in general. Three of us divide the speaking, and tomorrow is my night to present. Generally we give a presentation that lasts about an hour to an hour and a half, than prepare for questions.

My talk tomorrow night is "Why does God allow evil." I will explore the goodness of God, the universality of sin in mankind, sins entry into the world and it's impact. I will relate the existence of sin to mankind's status as a free moral agent, which I believe to be part of the image of God in man. Lastly, I will relate free moral agency, the cause of sin, to be a necessity if love is going to exist, no true ability to choose, no love. I will close by discussing the relationship of our free moral agency, God's love for mankind, and the path to a right relationship to God, making Jesus Lord.

Previous talks include "Tackling the Trinity" and "The Puzzle of Predictive Prophecy " based on Zechariah 11. My wife and I have been doing this for about 7-8 years. We have a few challenges right now, the Chinese side of the ministry seems to be interested in emphasizing their work more strongly, and we are not an "Official" student group, the university Chaplin only wants one Chinese group, and the one that got registered before we approached them holds some positions that would prevent us from working with them. Join this with the "Chinese student association" a known mainland government influenced group warning students not to attend "unapproved" groups, we have challenges. please remember us in prayer.

J.M.

[PeterG]

Thanks for sharing, Judas. I'll try to remember to pray for you folks.

[Bill Rushby]

When you refer to the St. Thomas Christians, are you talking about the "Church of the East?" if so, are you aware of Richard Showalter's *A Silk Road Pilgrimage: Discovering the Church of the East*?

[Judas Maccabeus]

JM, did you ever get hold of the book that Ernie recommended in the beginning of this thread? I've always been a bit leery of Broadbent's book because of the immense job it would be to find all of that source material. It seems odd that he can be that certain of so many things no one else seems to know about.

I'd like to have a second opinion on some of that and I thought maybe Kennedy's book would provide that?

The next book I'm planning to write for TGS is a story that starts in 284 (the year Diocletian was crowned emperor) and tells the story of the deception of the church during the 4th century. It is a very interesting period of history, and takes the church from being the persecuted church to being the persecuting church.

[If you watch my blog, you might see further details seeping through the cracks this fall...]

Kennedy's "The torch of the testimony"

Finally finished. He is nowhere near as meticulous in footnoting his sources as Verduin, but it is to be expected, Verdun is an academic, Kennedy is not. Kennedy spends an inordinate amount of time describing various groups, but never showing any linkage, except perhaps for common ideas, and there he is rather thin. He spends an inordinate amount of time on the Plymouth Brethren movement in general, and Darby in particular.

Kennedy is militantly opposed to any intra-local church authority. He takes Darby and others to task for this, it seems to be his "thing." His final "vision" looks very much like the "theory" behind the non-instutional CoC. He opposes any connection between churches that looks like a denomination. Needles to say, I would take exception on this point on Biblical grounds, as I would with the rest of the Stone-Campbell movement.

As to the whole question of "Zurich Origin" verses "Ancient Origin" for Anabaptism, I find this non-contributory. He really does not make a case either way, but that is not his objective.

J.M.

[Ernie]

Could somebody identify the strange or erroneous beliefs that were held by various "pilgrim churches" that are identified in this book by Broadbent?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Could somebody identify the strange or erroneous beliefs that were held by various "pilgrim churches" that are identified in this book by Broadbent?

Ultimately, we don't really know. What we have left is generally what the dominant catholic church said about them when they wanted to disparage them. Writings were confiscated or burned. So for the most part, it is did they really say that, or is it just something that the RCC hung on them to justify burning them.

I an still wading through Broadbent but he is sure sparse in naming where he got some of this stuff. I wish he footnoted like Verduein.

J.M.