"English" who join the Amish

[Judas Maccabeus]

“Dear Princess”; I learned about it from a Baptist friend of mine who thought it was the greatest book ever.

Sorry, somehow I missed this. I'm going to ask my daughter to see if she can find the exact quote but if my memory is correct is was something about being free with smiles to strange men. So a slightly different context, perhaps?

Well, the book is addressed to young women. The saying was something like “don’t smile at someone you don’t know because you can’t be sure he’s a Christian”.

This is a ridiculous thing to teach.

Sounds like "Gothardism" to me.

[Josh]

#1, didn’t expect to sign in today and see Ken agreeing with some of old school Nationwide Fellowship extremism.

#2, OORB aren’t really “Old Order”, despite the name. Much as the Old German Baptist Brethren New Conference aren’t old, German, Baptist, all brothers, nor new.

#3, by numbers the most successful OO settings for a seeker are: Maine Amish (Unity & Smyrna); horse and buggy German Baptists; Delano-type Hoover Mennonites.

Of note is that the last group is probably the most “conservative” plain group that exists, well beyond a typical Amish or even Swartzentruber type of group.

[ohio jones]

#2, OORB aren’t really “Old Order”, despite the name. Much as the Old German Baptist Brethren New Conference aren’t old, German, Baptist, all brothers, nor new.

aren’t old ... nor new.

Somehow "Middle-Aged American Anabaptist Siblings" doesn't have quite the same cachet. It is slightly shorter, though.

[Heirbyadoption]

OORB aren’t really “Old Order”, despite the name. Much as the Old German Baptist Brethren New Conference aren’t old, German, Baptist, all brothers, nor new.

Being a member of the OGBBC-NC, and attending with River Brethren occasionally, your question piques my curiosity as to what constitutes your definition of Old Order? Also, would that definition exclude all OORBs from that, or might the more conservative group still fall under such a heading?

[Josh]

OORB aren’t really “Old Order”, despite the name. Much as the Old German Baptist Brethren New Conference aren’t old, German, Baptist, all brothers, nor new.

Being a member of the OGBBC-NC, and attending with River Brethren occasionally, your question piques my curiosity as to what constitutes your definition of Old Order? Also, would that definition exclude all OORBs from that, or might the more conservative group still fall under such a heading?

They are indeed practicing an older form of River Brethrenism (the rest of them basically having been swallowed up into United Methodism with a small amount ending up in the BIC), but they aren't at all like Old Order Amish or Old Order Mennonites, to whit:

- They aren't horse & buggy (except for one settlement)
- They have a strong influence from Schwarzenau Brethren style of pietism
- Their origins would be Mennonite ethnic backgrounds
- They (mostly) use cars, cell phones, Internet, electricity, and so forth
- They would be much closer and more open to evangelical views on salvation vs the Old Order sort of views.

I would perceive a group like this to be Restorationist, not Old Order.

[Verity]

Sorry, somehow I missed this. I'm going to ask my daughter to see if she can find the exact quote but if my memory is correct is was something about being free with smiles to strange men. So a slightly different context, perhaps?

Well, the book is addressed to young women. The saying was something like “don’t smile at someone you don’t know because you can’t be sure he’s a Christian”.

This is a ridiculous thing to teach.

Sounds like "Gothardism" to me.

Any others grow up with Gothard in the home/school/church? Maybe that is content for a new thread, but have been thinking lately how profoundly he influenced the conservative Mennonites, perhaps without them being totally aware of it.

[Verity]

Well, the book is addressed to young women. The saying was something like “don’t smile at someone you don’t know because you can’t be sure he’s a Christian”.

This is a ridiculous thing to teach.

Out here on the west coast there is a grocery chain called Safeway that is now owned by a private equity firm. One of the things that the corporate central office tried to implement a few years ago was a requirement that clerks and employees smile at all customers. Supervisors were monitoring and docking women who weren't and the company was using secret mystery shoppers to monitor compliance. It turned out that a lot of young women were complaining that being forced to smile at all the male customers was subjecting them to a huge increase in harassment and unwanted propositions and that sort of thing.

Not smiling at strangers isn't necessarily the worst behavior for young women in this day and age.

MARTINEZ, Calif. - Safeway's "superior customer service" program requires all employees to smile, greet and make eye contact with every customer who walks in.

Many customers say they shop at Safeway because they're treated well.

"They always offer to help with my groceries. They know exactly where everything is," said Julianne George, a music teacher who shops at a Safeway in Martinez. "They're concerned that you have the best possible shopping experience."

But that experience has turned into a nightmare for some workers at the Pleasanton, Calif.-based grocery store chain.

Richelle Roberts, a produce clerk at a Lafayette, Calif., store, said she's propositioned daily by men who mistake her company-mandated friendliness as flirtatiousness.

"This never used to happen to me until I had to open the door," she said. "It just takes away our rights. A woman knows where and when not to open that door for certain men."

A produce worker at a Pleasant Hill, Calif., store said she has hidden in a back room to avoid customers who have repeatedly propositioned her and followed her to her car.

Barbara Carpenter, president of United Food and Commercial Workers' Local 1179, said, "The union wants a non-hostile environment and `superior customer service,' as it stands today, jeopardizes the safety of our members."

Oakland attorney Matthew Ross filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board in May. "They've got battalions of MBAs who are coming up with these policies at the corporate fort in Pleasanton who don't take into account the real-life implications," he said.

Safeway spokeswoman Debra Lambert said the experience of the California women is unusual and that perhaps store managers need to better train workers to deal with unruly customers.

"Sometimes customers get out of line," she said. "We don't see it as a direct result of our initiative."

That is sad. Training their workers is a good conclusion. Many times predators are more aggressive if ignored, not the other way around. We have tried to teach our children to follow their gut feeling- if someone feels off, up the boundaries, it doesn't matter who it is. That would included folks from church, neighbors, family, etc, not only strangers. There was only once in my whole life of rubbing shoulders with all stripes of people that I could smell/taste the evil oozing out of them. But making eye contact with them helped break the iciness that was freezing my spirit.

Wonder if they started giving karate classes at break times at that store???

[Martin]

“Dear Princess”; I learned about it from a Baptist friend of mine who thought it was the greatest book ever.

Sorry, somehow I missed this. I'm going to ask my daughter to see if she can find the exact quote but if my memory is correct is was something about being free with smiles to strange men. So a slightly different context, perhaps?

Well, the book is addressed to young women. The saying was something like “don’t smile at someone you don’t know because you can’t be sure he’s a Christian”.

This is a ridiculous thing to teach.

I don't think it's entirely ridiculous...except for "he's not a Christian, therefore don't smile". There are some creepy men out there and as Mennonites, we are naive about it. The lady folk in my family have had some scary experiences and they are "smilers". I've had discussions with my family about proper touch for instance, and where it's out of bounds. Scripture says to "be wise as serpents, harmless as doves".

[Josh]

Any others grow up with Gothard in the home/school/church? Maybe that is content for a new thread, but have been thinking lately how profoundly he influenced the conservative Mennonites, perhaps without them being totally aware of it.

Growing up I was around people who were into the Gothard thing. My parents were always somewhat opposed to it.

Val Yoder, as I understand it, decided that conservative Mennonites really needed Gothardism and started pushing it hard back in the... 80s and 90s? If I recall correctly, he ran things at SMBI and used that as a platform to promote Gothardism "under the table".

A conservative Mennonite church I used to attend and nearly joined seemed to be rather badly infected with Gothardism, to the point that a men's meeting, someone trotted out the Men's Manuals in order to figure out the right thing to do in a difficult situation. When my nephew who is a member there was engaged to be married, the minister at the time gave him one of the Gothard booklet sized manuals - complete with solicitations in the back and a schedule to attend Gothard conferences in various cities in the 1980s.

One member there was convinced that the abuse allegations against Bill Gothard were all made up. I happen to have had a dear personal friend who spent time at IBLP / ATI HQ and personally witnessed a small amount of it herself, and she knew girls who had experienced a lot of it. (Her family was very big into ATI and Gothard.) When she first showed up, a girl warned her what to avoid and watch out for but also told her she'd be fine since she didn't have curly hair and wasn't blonde and that was what Mr Gothard seemed to "prefer".

Yet conservative Mennonite men who are members in good standing will insist that all of the above is made up, and that my friend is some kind of liar who is part of an elaborate conspiracy theory to frame a "good man". To quote one of them: "How could someone who has done so much good and published so many excellent books with good teachings have done such bad things?"

[Martin]

#1, didn’t expect to sign in today and see Ken agreeing with some of old school Nationwide Fellowship extremism.

#2, OORB aren’t really “Old Order”, despite the name. Much as the Old German Baptist Brethren New Conference aren’t old, German, Baptist, all brothers, nor new.

#3, by numbers the most successful OO settings for a seeker are: Maine Amish (Unity & Smyrna); horse and buggy German Baptists; Delano-type Hoover Mennonites.

Of note is that the last group is probably the most “conservative” plain group that exists, well beyond a typical Amish or even Swartzentruber type of group.

I'm not sure I would consider Unity and Smyrna, Old Order. Meetings are in English, they have meeting houses, Sunday School...and if you're doing Sunday School, you've left the Old Order camp.